Warning Lights On Starting?

[Andy V]

Originally posted by Steve_M
Dion

Does the engine light work when you first turn the ignition on?
Ive know people to take the bulb out to cover up a problem.



Continuing my education by reading through the archives here I came across this quote from Steve a while back, so I thought I'd better check what, exactly, illuminates on our newly-acquired Beat when we first turn the ignition on.

The bad news is that only the oil pressure warning light and the handbrake warning light come on when we first turn the ignition on. None of the other lights come on at all (I assume now that they should all illuminate at first?).

Any pointers as to how best to get at the bulbs to replace them (and even check their existence) would be much appreciated. I obviously need to investigate this quickly.

I've had a look around the speedo/rev counter/warning light unit and found four Allen screws on the back of it, two of which look easy to get at and two of which seem nigh on impossible. I've had a grope / gentle tug at the unit in general but not found any other potential way in as yet.

Any pointers folks?

Andy.

[Steve_M]

Well your missing the check engine light then.

Mmmm could be foul play, some one trying to hide an engine fault!!!

You really need to remove the instrument cluster from the car before you can open it up.

pic enclosed for your assistance.

screws from below steering column to remove that trim, to gain access to 3 screws holding instrument to dash and slide forward, then unplug and the remove allen bolts.

[Steve_M]

Check engine light bulb highlighted in blue

[Andy V]

Steve,

Thanks for your comprehensive and very helpful reply.

I'll do the necessary on Sunday morning, hopefully any local motor factors will be able to supply a replacement bulb if I take them the old one.

Meanwhile, some vehicle history for info:

About 1,000km ago (and before we owned her) the vehicle had GBP 2,340 of work done on it at the Honda Dealer in Rainham, Kent, dated 25/11/02.

The expensive parts listed in abbreviated form on the invoice are: "Camshaft Comp", "Pulley Comp, T/B D", "Throttle Body Ass", "Electronic Contl" and "Sensor Comp.,Cyli". The work was carried out due to Loss of Power and Engine Management Check Light Lit.

We were told of the above amount of work, but not in any detail, at the time of purchase earlier this week and with so much having been done so recently it seemed a good bet...

We've now got the Service History Print (which is where the detail above came from) and found that not only was all the above carried out on 25/11/02 but 4 months earlier on the 01/08/02 it had been there before to investigate loss of power and the engine check light being lit. On that occasion the same parts were replaced. So that's two replacements in 4 months.

Prior to that, the previous entry on the Service History Print was on 15/09/01 (with 1000km less on the clock):

"Vehicle recovered in non-start, pushed into workshop and investigated. Found rotor arm, incorrect one fitted and damaged distributor cap. Fitted new rotor arm and distributor cap. Still not starting. Further investigation and basic checks i.e. spark OK to plugs, petrol getting to injectors, air filter OK, checked cam belt timing OK, removed exhaust from manifold - still not starting. Phoned Honda Technical for information, none available. Checked fault codes, none recorded. Charged up battery, not holding charge. Fitted new battery, reassembled car back together ensuring all wiring connected correctly and repaired where necessary. Car then started. Reset timing, road tested, all OK".

All in all it seems to have been in the wars over the last 2 years / 2,000km. You would hope after that lot it would be in tip-top condition but now I'm wondering... :(

That's all from me for now,

Andy.

[Andy V]

With the help of Steve's diagram and photograph above (thanks again :) ) I removed the instrument cluster and checked the bulb in the engine management check light.

There was a bulb in the holder so I replaced it with the handbrake warning light (which I knew to be working) and, hey presto, the engine management check light now works. I was able to source a replacement orange bulb (they had no clear ones at the local motor factors) which I have now used for the handbrake warning light.

So, the engine check light now illuminates when the ignition is turned on then goes out shortly afterwards.....until the engine is started when the light illuminates and burns continuously :(

I haven't carried out the Service Check Connector Terminals check yet because I haven't worked out how to get into the engine bay to get access to it, the distributor (to check batch number) and the main fuse box to do the ECU reset after testing.

I've read up on where the Check Terminals are but need to work out how to get access to them. Remove passenger seat and the trim behind it, or go in through the top somehow perhaps?

Sorry to be a blithering nuisance but any pointers as to how to get at the check terminals, the distributor and the main fuse box would now be very useful! I'm off to experiment now but don't want to break anything....

In the meantime I've spoken to the company in Chatham who sold us the car about the bulb being dud and the check light being illuminated now I've replaced it - they will be ringing me back tomorrow afternoon once they've spoken to their fitter about how best to proceed.

By 'eck, apart from this she's a lovely car though :)

Off now to make a small donation to the u-ukhbc web site for all the help I've had so far, then try to puzzle out how to get at the various components above.

Cheers for now,

Andy (and Pat).

[adrianp]

Hi Andy,

Sorry to hear that you are having problems already...

The check connector etc are all accessed via the engine cover that is hidded under the rear shalf mat.

If you unzip the rear window and then remove the mat you should see the panel held in place with 4 screws/bolts.

Once these are undone you can carefully lift the panel out through the open rear window and then have access to the engine bay.

The proper way to get access is to remove all the screws that hold the roof in place around the bottom and then fold the roof up on itself but that way is only really needed if you are going to be doing some major work...

If you do a search on here then I have previously posted a diagram with the rough location of the connector, if you can't find it the give me a shout and I'll pop it on again

If you go to the front page of the site, the yellow beat symbol (top centre) is for the Tech section, in this, part way down is a troubleshooting button. If you click on that, it will list the fault codes that you might come across.

Hope this helps

Adrian

[Andy V]

Thanks Adrian,

Rain stopped play here in Doncaster for a while this afternoon but thanks to your guidance I've now managed to get into the engine compartment.

This must seem like pulling teeth to any of you Beat veterans reading about my progress though :o

Found the connector OK (yellow cap missing though so had me guessing for a while) and bridged the gap with a suitable piece of wire. Result: Code 9 from the ECU, No.1 Cylinder Position Sensor.

I note from searching the archives here that this might be due to the timing being out (engine idle speed is a bit erratic too, fluctuating between 1200 and 1600 rpm), but also that a number of you have experienced the code 9 scenario before. What I wonder is the most usual outcome?

Unfortunately checking and adjusting the timing is definitely outside my current capabilities.

Andy (and Pat).

[Steve_M]

You mention on the invoice you have with the car that it lists a 'Sensor Comp. Cyli' Is the part number with that description??

If so is it some thing like 37841- PZ2-014 ???

That is the No 1 Cylinder position sensor in question.

Now it could be just a case of the timing being a far way out causing that code.

Or a faulty sensor

Or a break in wiring

Or faulty ECU

It always smells fishy when the check light bulb does not work on start up and when the bulb is replaced. the light stays on!!!

Some one knows more than they are letting on.

Certainly worth pulling the middle fuse in the rear fuse box to clear the code and see what happens, what code comes back etc.

[Steve_M]

Fuse box found in area just in front of boot space on drivers side.

[Andy V]

I pulled the fuse earlier to reset the ECU but haven't checked to see that the same code was returned afterwards (the check light was certainly still lit with the engine running afterwards though). I'll repeat the process tea-time tomorrow (Monday) and report back.

As for part numbers, yes, 37841-PZ2-014 at GBP 80.16 features on the service history prints for 25/11/02 and 01/08/02, as does 37820-P36-003 at GBP 511.61 which I took to be the ECU itself.

[Steve_M]

Info on checking the Ignition timing can be found on my little Beat site.

www.honda-beat.co.uk (http://www.honda-beat.co.uk/page1.html)

Ive a feeling your beat is one i had heard about, that had been at the kent dealer for quite sometime, due to a cambelt failure and the reluctant customer who would not pay the bill.

Yes your assumptions were right 37820 is an ECU

[Andy V]

Yes, that'll be the one. The dealer is shown as one of the previous registered keepers.

The company who sold us the car said this came about because the owner before that had the expensive repairs carried out then refused to pay, so the dealer took ownership, so that all ties in.

[Andy V]

Originally posted by Steve_M

Info on checking the Ignition timing can be found on my little Beat site.

www.honda-beat.co.uk (http://www.honda-beat.co.uk/page1.html)



Thank-you. Though I'm not confident enough to tackle this myself I can perhaps call in a home-tune fella and show the settings and info to him, as I'd no doubt be lucky to find someone who knows the Beat.

There's also a garage in the Yellow Pages up here, in Sheffield, who claim to specialise in Japanese Imports so I could try them too for checking the ignition timing and for timing belt change.

Much depends on what the garage in Chatham say tomorrow.

Hoping to get our Beat to Hardwick Hall in September and say hello to anyone else from here who might be there that day.

[Andy V]

Originally posted by Andy V
I pulled the fuse earlier to reset the ECU but haven't checked to see that the same code was returned afterwards (the check light was certainly still lit with the engine running afterwards though). I'll repeat the process tea-time tomorrow (Monday) and report back.



A bit later than I'd intended (having got involved in driving a test-run for a classic bus to help track down an oil leak on its Gardner diesel engine), but we've just finished repeating the check connector test a few times - three to be precise.

The same fault, code 9, comes back after each test so it is consistent.

Meanwhile, the garage in Chatham didn't 'phone back today so I've nothing further to advise there either....

[Andy V]

Originally posted by Andy V
Meanwhile, the garage in Chatham didn't 'phone back today so I've nothing further to advise there either....

Spoke to the garage today - they suggested ringing the Honda Dealer that did the repairs at the end of last year to find out more before bringing her south. I did this but their response was that the mechanic concerned doesn't work there any more and no-one else can help as they will not work on a Honda Beat. Sigh.

So, our little red baby (for the record 'Brhonda' - for Baby Red Honda!) is going back to where we bought her from in Kent tomorrow for them to attempt to get her fixed, though with the Honda Dealer in Rainham now not being interested I'm not sure where they can turn.

We don't want to reject her but unless the fault is found and sorted we can't afford the risk.

So, if any of you see a red Beat on the A1, M11, M25 or A2 tomorrow, that'll be me, ETD from Doncaster 0700.

Andy (and Pat).

[adrianp]

Hi Andy,

Sorry to hear that you aren't getting very far with this... :(

Maybe Steves dealership in kent might be willing to at leased have a look at it and see if they can work out what is wrong...

I mean, Steve does seem to know his way around the cars pretty well so he might be able to help...

Anyway, if you do end up rejecting the car, I hope you have been converted enough to go out and find yourselves another one to replace it...

Hope everything goes well

Adrian.

[Andy V]

Originally posted by adrianp
Hi Andy,
Anyway, if you do end up rejecting the car, I hope you have been converted enough to go out and find yourselves another one to replace it...

Hope everything goes well

Adrian.

Thanks Adrian,

We haven't given up hope yet, though it all depends now on what the garage in Chatham are able to do next. I'll be giving them a pointer in the right direction ;) but ultimately the decision is theirs as the car was sold (albeit unknowingly) with a significant defect.

As for being converted, I should say so :D

Apart from collection day, a week ago yesterday, we've not been using her because of the fault and the possibility of us having to reject the car. A great shame 'cos she's great to go out in.

Great to look at and fun to drive, 'you can't beat a Beat' as someone here has as their sig file :)

I've now found a mate keen and able to help at this end with future servicing and repairs (with the aid of a bit of Beat Tech guidance where necessary) which is good news, and we've joined the UKHBC too. I've also got a manual on CD-rom ordered from Jason in Oz.

Fingers crossed!

Andy.

[Andy V]

Hi all,

Not much more to report after taking our Beat back a week ago today. The car sales place in Chatham seem to be taking the problem seriously which is good to see.

They've got their vehicle electrics specialist on the case - if he draws a blank then they'll arrange for her to go to a Honda Dealer in Kent for attention.

Pat paid the car sales place a visit this morning - there's no progress as yet on the code 9 fault light (or the CD auto-changer which was found to be defective when we picked her up).

Their electrics man has apparently posted a message somewhere for info on ECUs - I thought it might be on here but it isn't so I don't know where he posted it....

Might get her back in time for winter.... :p

Andy & Pat (UKHBC No.109)

[Andy V]

Our Beat is still in sunny North Kent having the Fault Code 9 investigated by a vehicle electrician (this was the preferred course of action by the garage that sold us the Beat, rather than book it in at a mid-Kent Honda Dealer....).

He's decided now that there doesn't appear to be any fault other than the indication from the No.1 Cylinder Position Sensor so they're going to replace that apparently (was a replacement sensor in November last year though, see recent history above).

(The 'sparks' has been seeking guidance when required from someone who works at another garage in North Kent who is a Honda Beat owner apparently - somewhere in the Cliffe area. Not a reader of this forum, I suppose?).

Current estimated time to have it sorted is a week on Saturday, so hopefully we'll be able to pick her up in full working order on 20th September, some five weeks after buying her, and having missed a month of relatively rare Beat-compatible British weather.

:(

Still a bit bemused about the purpose of the No.1 Cylinder Position Sensor anyway? Seemed to run fine on the two trips we drove with the fault showing and I note from the archives that others here have had the same fault for long periods seemingly without difficulty. :confused: Obviously the fault needs to be addressed and cleared anyway so that other faults arising are not masked by it though, but any guidance as to what part it plays in the overall scheme of things would be interesting to hear.

Still waiting (fairly) patiently.....

Andy & Pat.