Rattle Rattle Rattle

[BumbleBeat]

New Beat owner, fresh import to USA. Great fun this thing is, but egad, the noise! Tightened up loose stuff all over the place, now down to...

1) Loud rattle in 3-4k rpm range, every gear. Terribly annoying! From what i've read it's probably the clutch, nothing to do except buy earplugs, sigh.

2) This one concerns me. After fully, fully warmed up (15 minutes or so; probably 5 minutes after up to full operating temperature) I start getting a nasty engine rattle. It's in time with the engine rpm. Higher pitch than a rod knock. Almost sounds like really harsh pre-ignition, or maybe something in the valve train. It comes on slowly, getting louder and louder the longer you drive it. It first begins in the 4500rpm range, but the range gets wider and wider the longer you drive it. It's at it worst when driving a constant speed. A slight amount of throttle makes it stop, as does just letting off the throttle. 20 minutes or so after it starts it's almost constant, doesn't get quiet with throttle trickery.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Scott

2736

[LawrenceHarding]

I have just been dealing with a similar problem with a Subaru Vivio. In our case it was caused by a broken weld allowing the exhaust shielding to resonate at certain frequencies.

[BumbleBeat]

Thanks LawrenceHarding, good thought. I had actually examined my exhaust shields last weekend looking for the source of the 3-4000rpm rattle. I've since read numerous posts about a clutch rattle that sounds exactly like what I have. That one is caused by the springs in the pressure resonating in that rpm range. My #2 rattle is different in that it initially occurs at a certain rpm but gradually increases until it rattles across the whole rev range. Also, I can't feel rattle #2, can only hear it. I can feel rattle #1, which makes sense being a resonating vibration.

[BumbleBeat]

More info on rattle #2. Complete description:

After fully, fully warmed up (15 minutes or so; probably 5 minutes after up to full operating temperature) I start getting a nasty rattle. It's in time with the engine rpm. Higher pitch than a rod knock, more of a clack. It comes on slowly, getting louder and louder the longer you drive it. It first begins in the 4500rpm range, but the range gets wider and wider the longer you drive it. It's at it worst when driving a constant speed. A slight amount of throttle makes it stop, as does just letting off the throttle. 20 minutes or so after it starts it's almost constant, doesn't get quiet with throttle trickery. Thinking it might be pre-ignition, I checked the timing (which was on the money), then retarded it a good 10 degrees to be sure it couldn't pre-ignite. No change in rattle so ruled that out (and set timing back to normal). After quite a bit of test driving I found that it only happens with the clutch engaged. Once fully warm and full-time rattle, at any speed and any gear I can push in the clutch and rev the rpms up and down and no rattle that I can detect. I'm now thinking pilot bearing or clutch release bearing for several reasons:

-When clutch is disengaged (no noise) there's no load on the pilot to make it shake, and the throwout bearing is being squeezed, preventing it from rattling.
-It's at it's loudest when maintaining constant speed or very slight deceleration, when the drivetrain is at is lightest load. Enough to start a rattle, but not enough to hold things in place.
-Clutch engaged, lift off of throttle increases the load on the drivetrain, and the noise goes away. Now enough load on the pilot to keep it from rattling.
-Clutch engaged, add throttle also increases the load on the drivetrain, noise goes away. Again, enough load on the pilot to keep it from rattling.
-The noise is in time with engine rpm

I'm not sure which is the more likely culprit--the clutch release bearing or the pilot bearing. Are either (or both) common noise problems with Beats?

[Seventynine]

what's your valve clearances like?

I'd give the head a once over, check for stuck/sticky valves. clearances. get the intake off and check to see if they're all closing fully.

also, when you say "more of a clack" would make me think a blowing exhaust close to the head, check manifold/gaskets etc.

what colour were the plugs when you took them out? if it's running slightly lean you could have burnt an exhaust manifold gasket out

[BumbleBeat]

Thanks 79. Haven't had the valve cover off yet. Plugs are dark, rich if anything. Don't know how old they are, just got the car. The thing about valvetrain, I can't see how valve noise would occur when driving in gear, but not occur by just revving the engine to the same rpm while not it gear.

[Andrew Fisher]

Both Beats I've had have had an annoying rattle at about 2800 - 3000 rpm, especially on increasing revs. The only cure is driving it harder so the period affected lasts less.

Very annoying in slow traffic. Sorry can't help more sounds like a clutch issue (problem 2) to me.

Good luck! The other option is to get a VERY LOUD STEREO.

[BumbleBeat]

Thanks Andrew. I'm thinking all 3. Clutch, loud stereo, drive hard. That should do it.

[old'uns]

mines had a 'rattle' or 'whine' of some sorts for 3-4 yrs now.
i've always thought it's backlash or worn bearings in the 'box?
when replacing the aux belts i spun the alternator and AC by hand, nothing too loud to suggest bearings on those

loud stereo is a good call .....new HU, new component door speakers along with tweeters in pods alongside 2 other smaller ones and a big black box behind the passenger seat sorted it........

https://i.imgur.com/mnQDoQd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ntRxXW3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/orKEyeS.jpg

[Andrew Fisher]

(You must understand, I know nothing)

At least it's on the transmission side. Are you sure it's not something like a cv joint boot clip or something getting physically free and spinning round and clattering on something?

Has the car been used much? I found that the latest one I've got had hardly done anything or been properly lubricated for ages, and it loosened up quite well with a bit of honest use.

Please post some more pictures! I think you could fit two in the back of your truck.

[BumbleBeat]

Ha ha old'uns, it probably doesn't take a lot of stereo to be head banging loud with such a small interior!

Andrew, I don't think it could be cv joint related because it tracks with engine rpm, not kph. I have a clutch on order, we'll see what she looks like when I open her up.

[Seventynine]

Thanks 79. Haven't had the valve cover off yet. Plugs are dark, rich if anything. Don't know how old they are, just got the car. The thing about valvetrain, I can't see how valve noise would occur when driving in gear, but not occur by just revving the engine to the same rpm while not it gear.



Engine load

[BumbleBeat]

The load doesn't change appreciably on the valve train. Note, too, that the rattle occurs under light load. Heavy throttle (load) takes it away, but it also goes away by coasting in gear. It seems to me it has to be clutch or transmission. Both of those see an increased load whether by increasing the throttle or lifting the throttle. When lifting, the load is backwards--the tires are forcing the transmission to spin against an engine that doesn't want to. I'll find out soon I expect, I'm almost done with the clutch replacement....

[BumbleBeat]

The clutch is in. The first rattle is gone, the second one (the scary one) is not, sigh. Once I saw the clutch I didn't expect it to fix the second one. The four compression spring in the disk were loose (the normal cause of the annoying rattle), but everything else was solid. The input shaft to the transmission was also solid, I couldn't detect any play in it. Not sure where I'll look next.

[old'uns]

not many things left then?
AC compressor / alternator bearings
layshaft/end bearings etc in the box of magic tricks

[Andrew Fisher]

The fact that it goes away when you press the clutch down, there is a load of good gear oil in the box isn't there?

[BumbleBeat]

Yes. When I pulled the tranny I lost a fair amount of oil out of the axle holes when I tipped it sideways. Oil looked brand new. After I put tranny back in I opened the side plug and filled with Honda MTF until it started running out. Looked like I put about as much in as came out.

I got the valve cover off last night, gonna check valve clearances when I get a chance.

[BumbleBeat]

Valve clearances were all out by .002-.003". Reset those and I was amazed at how much quieter it was. But the ugly rattle is still there...and it's rod #2, ugh. Not sure specifics yet, haven't opened it up. I removed one spark plug lead and drove it, did this for each cylinder. Rattle was GONE when #2 was unplugged. Nice to have found it, but not a good problem to have.

[BumbleBeat]

Got the crank out Saturday, took it with all the bearings to machine shop today, guy says it looks a little worn but doesn't look bad enough to cause any noise. So must be up top. I pulled the bottom with engine in car, didn't want to have to remove intake, exhaust, water lines, electrical. Oh well, another blown weekend ahead doing all that. I would like to have the crank journals measured while its out, but the shop has no idea what they should be of course (in US). Anybody know?

[Steve_M]

It's in Japanese, but the Engine Shop Manual download below may help you.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wLrmjFtk1jDB6bun7PRAUcxlKaF9PVvP

[BumbleBeat]

Hi Steve

Thanks for the manual. Too bad I wouldn't know Japanese if it bit me. While putting the bottom end back together my clicker torque-wrench failed to click and I overtightened a rod cap and ruined a bearing. If I'm replacing one I'm replacing them all, but I'm not sure what I need. The colors on the bearings are gone of course, but the markings are very legible. Hoping you could take a look at these pictures and interpret? Related, you had a link to the page in the manual on the rod bearings in English in this thread:

http://www.u-ukhbc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?3099-Engine-rebuild-underway-need-part-numbers-for-bearings&highlight=bearing

Think you can track that down?

2763 2764 2765

[bigB]

Something doesn't look quite right to me. Are those caps properly orientated?

[BumbleBeat]

I think so, but at my age I'm not sure of anything anymore. :-( I Photoshop-swapped the 1-2 caps in this pic and it looks less crazy to me, but then I don't know what it's supposed to look like in the first place.

2766

I think I need to go double-check the marks I put on those parts before I disassembled them.

[Steve_M]

You should have the numbers 1,2,3,4 on the rods across the rod/cap joint, you need to read the letters from the crank (A, B, C, D) then look up the correct shell on the matrix

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Y2WNn2vjNl-lsQHoH2lTNydad0hTENNx

[BumbleBeat]

Finally getting back to the Beat. Crank has BBC (almost impossible to see, that's another story), rods are 3,3,2, so green, green, green (thanks for the chart!). The last piece of the puzzle, the bearing part number. http://jp-carparts.com/honda/partlist.php?maker=honda&type=BEAT&cartype=19712&fig=E&fig1=1600 lists "DAIDO" AND "TAIHO". Are those different manufacturers?

13214-P36-003 BEARING D, CONNECTING ROD (GREEN)(DAIDO) 6 JPY 1,128 USD 10.74
13214-P36-004 BEARING D, CONNECTING ROD (GREEN)(TAIHO) 6 JPY 1,348 USD 12.84

[Steve_M]

Yes, 2 different suppliers originally, I expect one has superseded to the other by now, so only one type would be available.

http://www.taihonet.co.jp/e/engine_b.html

https://www.daido.co.jp/en/products/index.html

[BumbleBeat]

How is it you know EVERYTHING about Beats?

[steveinjapan]

Just wanted to chime in here on the rattle. I've had an engine-speed rattle above about 80 kph since I've owned the car, never getting any better or any worse. The odd thing is that I hear it only when driving on the expressway with the top (hood) down. With the top (hood) in place I do not hear it. The seems counter-intuitive, and it has brought me no closer to identifying the source of the noise. It sounds more mechanical than an exhaust leak, but that's only a guess.

Steve in Okinawa

[Greenscale]

1) Loud rattle in 3-4k rpm range, every gear. Terribly annoying! From what i've read it's probably the clutch, nothing to do except buy earplugs, sigh.

2) This one concerns me. After fully, fully warmed up (15 minutes or so; probably 5 minutes after up to full operating temperature) I start getting a nasty engine rattle. It's in time with the engine rpm. Higher pitch than a rod knock. Almost sounds like really harsh pre-ignition, or maybe something in the valve train. It comes on slowly, getting louder and louder the longer you drive it. It first begins in the 4500rpm range, but the range gets wider and wider the longer you drive it. It's at it worst when driving a constant speed. A slight amount of throttle makes it stop, as does just letting off the throttle. 20 minutes or so after it starts it's almost constant, doesn't get quiet with throttle trickery.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Scott

2736

I have this exact same problem and have not been able to find a solution. I have tried adjusting ignition timing and it’s had no effect. I noticed in another post on this thread that you’ve narrowed it down to a specific cylinder. Did you happen to locate the source of the sound for noise 2? The noise has been driving me up the wall and the fact that I nothing I’ve tried has managed to quiet it bugs the living hell out of me.

[BumbleBeat]

Update: Still not fixed, but I know a little more. I was fortunate to find a Beat being parted out only a few hundred miles away, so a road trip and a few hundred bucks got me a head and a transmission. Replaced those, no change. That's a bummer, but I"m no longer concerned that something is about to explode. Just finished replacing all motor mounts. The goal for that was less shake in the car at idle, which it indeed helped. It toned down the rattle a bit too. Driver side motor mount was interesting. Looking at the top picture, the steel center of the mount rests on the chassis, the engine hangs from the threads. Comparing old vs new, the old one had the engine hanging a full cm lower than the new one.
2782

Next up, I ordered a noise finder https://www.steelmantools.com/chassisear.html. I'll find this if I don't go insane first.

[BumbleBeat]

I FINALLY have news. The noise detector confirmed the noise coming from the engine. It wasn't very useful for narrowing down beyond that, but at least I can rule out drivetrain. Early on in diagnosing this I retarded the timing quite a bit to test for pre-ignition and the noise didn't change. I retarded it again today, apparently more than last time, because it got quieter, and still had good power, which surprised me. If a little is good, a lot is better, so I dialed the distributor as far as it would go and the noise is gone, or nearly so. There's some strangeness here. I had the timing dead on. Jumpered the connector, strobed the 20BTDC mark at 1200rpm, it's pretty routine. In the current max-retard condition, the engine light is on and the car can barely pull itself at low rpm, no surprises there. But at high rpm it drives like normal. It seems like it's advancing way too much. The other thought is that it's running way too lean at high rpm, which could also induce pre-ignition. Recall that the knock only happens under a high speed load; no noise with clutch in or sitting in the driveway revved to the moon. I'm beginning to think this mystery is an ECU problem. Make sense, since ECUs are a complete mystery to me. Any thoughts Beat Genius Steve_M? Greenscale, have you tried retarding the ignition way forward?