Honda Beat Electric Car (Performance Battery Electric Conversion)

[eat808]

Hello all at U-UKHBC

This is my first post on this forum, I am in the process of converting a Honda Beat into an EV, with the help of my local mechanic's Luke and Brent -

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Southern-Motor-Development/91717767654?ref=stream

and Steve at Jozztek http://www.jozztek.com/

I have a blog for the EV, I have been posting photo's & details of the build here -

http://electrobeatev.blogspot.co.uk/

The donor vehicle was acquired in November of 2012 and was selected on Steve's advice concerning curb weights of donor cars, basically I spent a while searching eBay for a local (to my location) "sports" car that was less than a grand and weighed less than 1000KG, I guess I was lucky as within a few searches I found a great looking Honda Beat just around the corner from me and after checking the curb weight it turned in at a tiny 760Kg, perfect, although it is only a 2 seater being a Honda it is built like a tank, it "had" a massive 63 BHP! with its tiny 3 cylinder petrol engine and came with a recent dyno readout (who bothered to dyno this!) claiming that the actual value was nearer 57 BHP.

My local mechanic Brent took it for a spin before he and Luke striped the engine & ancillaries from the car and he laughed at just how under powered it was for a "Sports car".

I specified from the outset to Steve at Jozztek that I was after a performance EV but wanted to keep the total build cost to less than 10K (GBP)

And with his advice I might just manage that (Update - Not Quite!), I have fitted -

10KW Lipo battery pack, 108 x Turnigy 5S1P LiPo packs (5Ah - 18.5V each) 12 banks in series to give the required 220V, 9 packs per bank.

10KW charger from Emotorwerks - http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl Kit form (cant afford the built one)

Kostov K9 220V Series wound DC motor.

Soliton Jr controller pack.

Along with a number of extras, bussbars, cycle analyst, dashboard monitors etc.

I have been using my 3D printer to produce ABS plastic parts primarily for the charger build (I built the 3D printer recently it's a RepRap Prusa Mendle derivative)

I am hoping that the beat should be approx. 3 times more powerful than stock and give me a 40 mile range, looking forward to burning some rubber ;-)

I also hope to be exhibiting the "Electro Beat" (as it has been affectionately named by my partner) at the Brighton Mini Maker Fair at the Corn Exchange on the 7th of September, assuming it is finished in time.

I also have a number of unwanted internal combustion parts that I will be posting on eBay for sale soon (I will also post links on this forum to give you guy's/girls the heads-up far a first look at anything you may be interested in).

Thanks for listening

Graham

[witsend]

Welcome Graham, glad you managed to post this at last!
It's s fascinating project, we look forward to seeing it up and running!

Paul w

[beecee]

Hello and welcome , sounds like a great project and should be a lot of fun , even if it is very expensive .
A 150bhp Beat really will be electrifying !!!! ( ill get my coat )

[bigB]

Very cool.!

[eat808]

Hiya beecee

It may be expensive to build initially but I have budgeted very carefully to make sure the car will pay for itself in 10 years, basically if I can make it last over 10 years it will be saving me approx £2000 per yer every year after it's 10th re-birthday, that includes a new set of batts within that 10 year period.

I am very interested in the Eco side of electric cars but unless they make you heart quicken people will never buy them, so it was performance car all the way.

It makes no sense to run a car until it falls apart or you are bored of it, then dump it and get a new one, that is definitely a throwaway "capitalist" ethos, To take a 20 year old modern classic such as the Beat and restore it to better than it was originally without dumping ton's of CO2 into the atmosphere and increasing the size of my carbon footprint to even bigger than it most likely is already is so much nicer and hopefully cheaper eventually.

I hope to convince as many others as possible that electric is the future and recycle/restore/reuse is the way forward, millions of perfectly function-able/restore-able cars are crushed every year purely because there is no market for them, and each one of them took thousands of man hours to create in the first place, insanity prevails in our western throwaway culture, I alone cannot hope to change this but I can make my small contribution.

also once I get the PV array up and running my transport fuel cost's will essentially drop to zero, now that is what I call getting one over the "MAN" ;-)

Graham


Hello and welcome , sounds like a great project and should be a lot of fun , even if it is very expensive .
A 150bhp Beat really will be electrifying !!!! ( ill get my coat )

[eat808]

Hiya Witsend

Yeah Google chrome seems to work fine without stalling/crashing.

Thanks for all your help in getting me live.

Graham

[beecee]

Hiya beecee

It may be expensive to build initially but I have budgeted very carefully to make sure the car will pay for itself in 10 years, basically if I can make it last over 10 years it will be saving me approx £2000 per yer every year after it's 10th re-birthday, that includes a new set of batts within that 10 year period
I am very interested in the Eco side of electric cars but unless they make you heart quicken people will never buy them, so it was performance car all the way.

It makes no sense to run a car until it falls apart or you are bored of it, then dump it and get a new one, that is definitely a throwaway "capitalist" ethos, To take a 20 year old modern classic such as the Beat and restore it to better than it was originally without dumping ton's of CO2 into the atmosphere and increasing the size of my carbon footprint to even bigger than it most likely is already is so much nicer and hopefully cheaper eventually.

I hope to convince as many others as possible that electric is the future and recycle/restore/reuse is the way forward, millions of perfectly function-able/restore-able cars are crushed every year purely because there is no market for them, and each one of them took thousands of man hours to create in the first place, insanity prevails in our western throwaway culture, I alone cannot hope to change this but I can make my small contribution.

also once I get the PV array up and running my transport fuel cost's will essentially drop to zero, now that is what I call getting one over the "MAN" ;-)

Graham


I do think this is a good thing , but the price would be too much for me , as the possible pay off is too far away , your looking at 10 years added to the life of an already 20 year old car before you see a return , part for a Beat may be a moot issue down the road .
Now that you have done this already , would the cost be much less second time around as you will have learnt from mistakes and loss of time possibly making it more atainible for others .

[Mobius]

Think this is a super idea. Imagine in the future being able to buy an electric motor or conversion kit for your Beat. You've got my vote!
Need to get a manufacturer of the motors involved one day to make this more affordable. If you think about it, companies exist that specialise in tarting up various cars or fitting larger engines so why not electric conversions.

[beecee]

If you get the price down to under £5k i think you will be on a winner , above that its to big an outlay for to long a wait on any return . If money wasn't a issue I would do this tomorrow as I do agree is a good idea , and recon a 150 bop Beat would be immense fun .

[steveinjapan]

If you get the price down to under £5k i think you will be on a winner , above that its to big an outlay for to long a wait on any return . If money wasn't a issue I would do this tomorrow as I do agree is a good idea , and recon a 150 bop Beat would be immense fun .

Great project! Just wondering if you have estimated the range you will get assuming appropriately sporty driving???

[eat808]

I do think this is a good thing , but the price would be too much for me , as the possible pay off is too far away , your looking at 10 years added to the life of an already 20 year old car before you see a return , part for a Beat may be a moot issue down the road .
Now that you have done this already , would the cost be much less second time around as you will have learnt from mistakes and loss of time possibly making it more atainible for others .

Hiya beecee

Exactly the whole point of doing it was to see how much it would cost to convert a nice (i.e. sporty) car to electric and in the process learn how I could do it for less second time around.

I already have the second conversion planned it is an Mazda RX8 which admittedly is a much more common car (unique is nice but costly) but it does have several thing's going for it.

1) they come up regularly very cheap as people don't service the rotary engines properly and then wonder why they have compression failure!

2) I am hoping that because the gearbox is inline in an RX8 (unlike the transverse Beat's gearbox which I had to retain) I will be able to remove the entire gearbox and have the motor connect directly to the differential, thereby losing the huge weight in the gearbox. Less weight means less batteries which in turn means less cost. also I would save on the need to make expensive coupling plates and collars as I needed in the Beat to connect the motor to the gearbox, yet more cash saved.

3) several other people in the DIY electric car conversion game are already putting together a conversion "Kit" for the RX8 so it is very definitely likely to hit the market soon.

Also not everyone wants a performance car, it would be quite easy to make a "City" car conversion say from a Nissan Micra or equivalent (I am not saying a Micra is a good car to convert I have not investigated this as yet and as mentioned transverse gearboxes are more difficult, not sure what a Micra has but it is very light just like the Beat) this would likely cost considerably less as there would be no need for the performance motor for example, I am also looking at doing one of these after the RX8 is on the road (and depending on how much interest I get)

in reference to the "Payoff" if you (not you personally as you may only drive 1000 miles/year I have no idea) actually sit down and worked out how much it is costing to run your existing petrol guzzling car (as I did) you would realize that you are already paying more than this over the life of the car if you include taxes, fuel, and the heavy maintenance costs that ICE cars require.

I estimated that the ownership of an internal combustion car for someone who is commuting over 3-4K miles / year (average IMO) costs around £20K over 10 years that's £20K more than it cost you to buy the car in the first place basically that is just fuel and tax, and probably does not include the high cost of servicing on ICE cars.

So Electric cars are already starting to make sense here in the UK especially.

However there are catches

1) Range. To own an EV means driving differently, you cant just hit the "Gas" so to speak regardless of the cost to you or the environment and expect to pull into a EV charge point in every "Gas" station and charge in a few minutes as you can with an ICE car, well not yet at least, however that is why I spent £800 on just my charger, I should be able to charge the Beat in 1 hour assuming the current required is available. (the 1 hour charge is due to the tiny Battery pack I needed for the Beat which in turn is due to it's tiny weight once the ICE engine & ancillaries were removed.

2) Batteries, currently batteries are not particularly Eco friendly lithium is toxic if it is not recycled properly, although as mentioned better safer greener batteries are in the pipeline, and recycling is the order of the day.

3) Motors, this is a bit of a minefield, DC series wound, AC, Permanent Magnet Motors? they all have their pro's and con's but if you compare the first ICE engines to what we have now the future looks very bright.


Think this is a super idea. Imagine in the future being able to buy an electric motor or conversion kit for your Beat. You've got my vote!
Need to get a manufacturer of the motors involved one day to make this more affordable. If you think about it, companies exist that specialise in tarting up various cars or fitting larger engines so why not electric conversions.

Hiya Mobius

This is very likely to happen conversion kits are already available albeit very expensive at the moment, however costs are dropping and small incremental improvements to battery technology are happening all the time (nanotech is driving this) I don’t think we are likely to have a battery revolution any time soon but the future is definitely looking up.
some manufacturers are already on board, The Kostov K9 has been officially paired with the Soliton Jr controller (hence me going for this combo for the Beat) this is one of the first official manufacturing get-together’s to happen in the DIY EV market, and a lot of people are exploiting it to the max.

Basically the Soliton Jr controller has been specifically designed with the Kostov K9 motor in mind.


If you get the price down to under £5k i think you will be on a winner , above that its to big an outlay for to long a wait on any return . If money wasn't a issue I would do this tomorrow as I do agree is a good idea , and recon a 150 bop Beat would be immense fun .

This is exactly what is required a less than 5K conversion kit for anyone who likes to work on cars or that can be given to a mechanic who likes a challenge to fit and can be fitted in a short space of time.

Time is the tricky part as currently you would be hard pressed to convert an ICE car into an EV in less than a year unless you had a dedicated 2 man team of 1 mechanic and 1 high power electrical engineer working full time on it.

Thanks for listening

Graham

[eat808]

Great project! Just wondering if you have estimated the range you will get assuming appropriately sporty driving???

Hi Steveinjapan

Well that is a good question, I specified 40 miles to the EV expert I have been getting my electrical advice from, however once I had purchased the 10KW battery pack and we had stripped the car of ICE engine parts the Beat turned out to be considerably lighter than we were expecting so I am hoping for somewhere between 60-100 miles, this will be one of the first things I will be testing along with top speed and charge time.

and just as in a gas fueled car it depends entirely on how you drive it, if I am racing I would expect around the 35-40 mile range, If I am hypermileing it I should get nearer 60-100 miles only time will tell, I will be posting results on the "diyelectriccar" forum, I will link them here also once I have some (3 weeks I hope until completion).

Graham

[beecee]

I look forward to updates , cheers

[Ending Credits]

I don't really understand the 10KW part of the battery pack. Do you mean 10KWh? Also, what is the expected final kerb weight? I'm guessing if you have a 500kg shell with 50kg for the motor you might have 150kg of batteries (although that's some 20KWh and possibly £7, 000).

Edit: By my calcs you have 10kWh with those batteries so I'm assuming it will be around 75kg. How much did they cost?

What efficiency is the motor? If you can gain 10% efficiency you save 10% on batteries which saves you 3% on weight which saves you an extra 1% on batteries... We were looking at a 50kW YASA brushless motor which peaks at 92% but then it's £10,000!

I will have to read more when I get home as we (Uni team) are building a 200kg EV racecar.

Also, I see you have a Legnum VR4; I'm hoping to pick up a Galant VR4 next year!

[Bruce]

Wow Graham, you crazy fool/genius. I like your style. Not sure this'll save you money, but it sounds like an awful lot of fun. Keep us all up to date.

When you're done, maybe consider entering it in the Future Car Challenge Eco-Rally? http://www.futurecarchallenge.com/ Though this year's event has been cancelled. In 2011, McLaren F1 road car designer, Gordon Murray thrashed everyone else's fuel/electricity efficiency with his prototype T.27 three seater car http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/press-T27-unveiled.php. I am desperately hoping he can get it to mass production so that I can get one before my Beat dies - not sure when either of those dates will be.

Also, if you need electric performance car building advice, there are many universities building electric racing cars at Formula Student: http://www.formulastudent.com/

[LawrenceHarding]

With reference to "burning rubber" the key issue here is torque not power. I understand electric motors generate maximum torque at zero rpm so it should step off the line pretty fast. It would appear that the Smart Fortwo is now available with electric power in parts of America. Clearly time will tell as to whether it will be sold in the UK and on what terms, however this does open up the possibility in the longer term of getting a complete "Kit" of bits from a write off.

[Ending Credits]

With reference to "burning rubber" the key issue here is torque not power. I understand electric motors generate maximum torque at zero rpm so it should step off the line pretty fast. It would appear that the Smart Fortwo is now available with electric power in parts of America. Clearly time will tell as to whether it will be sold in the UK and on what terms, however this does open up the possibility in the longer term of getting a complete "Kit" of bits from a write off.

Actually it varies from motor to motor; the thing about electric motors is that they can generate torque from a standstill so you don't need a clutch to start moving. They also tend to have a very flat torque curve so you don't need different gears.

Also, remeber that while torque is what creates accelleration, the drivetrain can be geared up or down to improve torque (but at the expense of a shortened gear ratio) hence why horsepower (which is just torque x rpms) is really a better indicator of power. The reason high torque figures are 'good' s that they mean peak horsepower occurs lower down the rpm range which makes the car more drivable. It also generally implies a better 'torque-curve' (i.e a wider 'powerband') which means you get maximum torque for longer.

You're right though that electric motors are great off the line, although part of that is down to traction control. Also with regards to getting kit from the fortwo, I always thought the Nissan Leaf looked like a good starting point but I don't know if you can get hold of a battery pack without owning one.

Alos, Bruce, I'm on the formula student team at uni and we're building an EV (what I was talking about earlier).

[eat808]

I don't really understand the 10KW part of the battery pack. Do you mean 10KWh? Also, what is the expected final kerb weight? I'm guessing if you have a 500kg shell with 50kg for the motor you might have 150kg of batteries (although that's some 20KWh and possibly £7, 000).

Edit: By my calcs you have 10kWh with those batteries so I'm assuming it will be around 75kg. How much did they cost?

What efficiency is the motor? If you can gain 10% efficiency you save 10% on batteries which saves you 3% on weight which saves you an extra 1% on batteries... We were looking at a 50kW YASA brushless motor which peaks at 92% but then it's £10,000!

I will have to read more when I get home as we (Uni team) are building a 200kg EV racecar.

Also, I see you have a Legnum VR4; I'm hoping to pick up a Galant VR4 next year!

Hi There Ending Credits

It sounds like you know more about this than me, I am not actually building the car myself but funding the build with the advice of a very good mechanic and a local EV specialist, the only part I have built is the 10-15Kw charger from EMW as this was an electronics kit which I am capable of handling, although it is High Voltage/High Current which is also new for me, basically when I started this project around a year ago I was a complete novice and would not consider myself much more than that now other than what I have learnt about how to build an EV over the last year, and most of that is advice I could recount but is not additional skills I have learnt other than project management and HV power electronics construction.

But here goes with what I know, yes it AFAIK a 10KWh pack, the Soliton Jr is a 180kw and a perfect match for the Kostov K9 motor (9 inch 220V), standard efficiency rates for a DC series wound is around 85%.

I was originally looking at the Agni motors (Cedric Lynch Motors) as they are a British designed motor manufactured in India and give a much better 93% efficiency, however they are not really suited to cars (yet) in fact my EV specialist friend Steve works for Agni and is in the process of developing a brush less version of the Agni which should be capable of an in car application, The brushed Agni's have been used successfully to win races at the electric TT in the isle of man, but in a racy application you do end up replacing brushes regularly.

so these did not suit my application as I specified sporty and reliable so I did not want to be replacing brushes regularly.

to answer your other questions the initial curb weight if the ICE'd Honda Beat is 760Kg according to Wikipedia (same as a Nissan Micra) and I understand that this is measured with a "Standard" adult male in the drivers seat.

I have not yet weighed the car but as soon as it is moving (very soon I hope) I will be taking it down the local scrap yard to get it weighed, I am guessing it will be lighter than it was because I have stood next to the car with all the parts fitted (as it is now) excluding some welders cable and an additional 12V battery for the in car electronics (this one will be lithium Iron Polymer a heavier battery type that the Lithium polymer but much lighter than lead acid, 4 cells in a block to give the required current and it is almost exactly the same size as the original mini lead acid battery) and I was able to roll the car back and forth easily with Brent my mechanic with literally no effort at all in fact I was stunned at how light it was I could easily push the whole car in forth gear on my own with no real effort at all, easier that pushing an old mini in my opinion as I have done a few times in the past ;-) so I am fairly confident that with me in the drivers seat it should come in at less than 760Kg (nearer 500kg I hope)

Which uni are you working for or studying at, I work at Sussex University in Brighton in the UK as a technical engineer, the car is just my crazed eco project ;-)

and yes the VR4 is a fantastic car (I love it) however be prepared to remortgage your house to pay the petrol bill as if you drive like I want to then you will get 6 miles to the gallon "SIX!" now that is what I call burning the planet and is exactly why I am trying to build an electric rocket ship, so I can have my speed freak cake and eat it ;-)

choosing the motor/controller/batteries is by far the hardest part as it is very subjective depending on your requirements and budget, the Agni's are great for efficiency (93%) a lot cheaper than your 50KW YASA but in a race application would need regular servicing after every single race.

AFAIK AC motors are better at prolonged race applications (ralley's etc) and offer Regen (although this is a bit of a misnomer when you look at the energy savings there are much easier/cheaper ways to save more energy, reducing weight for example) AC motors are expensive and the controllers are extortionate, way beyond my budget.

DC series wound is by far the easiest/cheapest way to go albeit at a mere 85% efficiency, however compared to the best Internal combustion engines out there which give around 23% efficiency I am happy with this.

If you are into Drag racing, speed over a very short distance, than fit 2 DC series wound motors and 2 controllers as in the "Black Current" race winning VW Beetle.

After much discussion with my EV friend I understand that the perfect motor for an EV might well be a permanent magnet motor however AFAIK there are not many (if any) available or appropriate for the EV market and the controllers don't really exist for Automotive applications as yet (watch this space the EV market is advancing very rapidly at present).

I am of the understanding that the Batteries I have (LIPOS, not LIFEPOS) are the best you can get for racy applications (High C rating) which AFAIK means you can dump the current out of them very quickly without destroying them and although LIFEPOS are nearly as good they are considerably heavier.

I could have over volt'd the Kostov K9 motor to 270V rather than the "nominal" 220V which would have given me better top speed and acceleration however I would have needed more banks of batteries and as the car is already 3 times over torqued I though the better of this idea (might use this on the RX8 conversion I am planning rather than going for a larger motor)

Good luck with the EV project, do you have a blog/website I can follow, are you on the diyelectriccar forum (you should be if your not already)

Thanks for listening

Graham

[eat808]

Wow Graham, you crazy fool/genius. I like your style. Not sure this'll save you money, but it sounds like an awful lot of fun. Keep us all up to date.

When you're done, maybe consider entering it in the Future Car Challenge Eco-Rally? http://www.futurecarchallenge.com/ Though this year's event has been cancelled. In 2011, McLaren F1 road car designer, Gordon Murray thrashed everyone else's fuel/electricity efficiency with his prototype T.27 three seater car http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/press-T27-unveiled.php. I am desperately hoping he can get it to mass production so that I can get one before my Beat dies - not sure when either of those dates will be.

Also, if you need electric performance car building advice, there are many universities building electric racing cars at Formula Student: http://www.formulastudent.com/

Hi Bruce

Genius NOT!, Crazy Fool Very probably ;-)

A lot of fun, I sincerely hope so as so far it has just been a lot of stress getting it built, Work out your budget then double it, work out the time schedule then treble it! remortgage the house and get the wife/partner involved or be prepared to loose them all ;-)

Thanks for the links I was planning on going for the WAVE race next year although it look like I need more batteries to qualify! I will check out these others as well.

Graham

[eat808]

With reference to "burning rubber" the key issue here is torque not power. I understand electric motors generate maximum torque at zero rpm so it should step off the line pretty fast. It would appear that the Smart Fortwo is now available with electric power in parts of America. Clearly time will tell as to whether it will be sold in the UK and on what terms, however this does open up the possibility in the longer term of getting a complete "Kit" of bits from a write off.

Hi LawrenceHarding

Burning rubber should not be a problem in the "Electro Beat" as I had to retain the gearbox much to my initial dismay, however it does help with reverse, boosts my top speed in 5th (slightly) and will burn rubber easily in 1st, however I had better be careful not to blow the transmission as it is 3 times over specification! easy does it ;-) drifting should be fun though, RWD mid "motor" drifttastic ;-) I am guessing it should be around 150BHP equivalent however I understand that EV's are measured in HP not BHP, not sure I get this at the mo but it will all come eventually (I hope) AFAIK Voltage is equivalent to speed, current is equivalent to torque.

I have heard of the EV smart for 2 but not seen one as yet, EV's need to be exiting to get peoples interest, the Leaf/ZE/IMIEV are just not doing it for me, the Tesla however does, but the price does not :-(

Thanks for listening

Graham (Crazy Fool)

[eat808]

Actually it varies from motor to motor; the thing about electric motors is that they can generate torque from a standstill so you don't need a clutch to start moving. They also tend to have a very flat torque curve so you don't need different gears.

Also, remeber that while torque is what creates accelleration, the drivetrain can be geared up or down to improve torque (but at the expense of a shortened gear ratio) hence why horsepower (which is just torque x rpms) is really a better indicator of power. The reason high torque figures are 'good' s that they mean peak horsepower occurs lower down the rpm range which makes the car more drivable. It also generally implies a better 'torque-curve' (i.e a wider 'powerband') which means you get maximum torque for longer.

You're right though that electric motors are great off the line, although part of that is down to traction control. Also with regards to getting kit from the fortwo, I always thought the Nissan Leaf looked like a good starting point but I don't know if you can get hold of a battery pack without owning one.

Alos, Bruce, I'm on the formula student team at uni and we're building an EV (what I was talking about earlier).

Hi Ending Credits

Are you intending to start an EV conversion/construction company when you leave uni?

It sounds like you know your stuff ;-)

Can I pre-order my 200Kg carbon fiber chassis Tesla beating super "EV" now?

Graham

Graham

[Moriniman]

It's been a bit frustrating seeing this thread and not being able to post (posting permissions not set correctly), but that's sorted now.

Between 1996 and 1999 I was involved with a a Porsche 914 EV race car. I used to spend 5 weeks each year in California preparing and developing the car before taking it down to the Firebird circuit in Arizona for the racing. One year we were sharing track practice time with the National Auto Sports Association and were able to keep pace (or even pass) 2 series BMWs, RX7s and other similar spec cars. The real surprise to those guys was when the found out how much power we had. Given that we had to budget our energy for a 25 lap race, we were limited to just 35kw peak. A Beat by comparison is 47Kw, but that is of course a peak figure. We had the car up to 135mph (gps figure) on one of the runways at Alameada Airforce base (still with the power restricted to around 80Kw). On the street we estimated the range to be easily over 80 miles, not bad on a lead acid battery.

This was my own car project http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/sciricco-frame.htm which was probably the fastest road legal EV in the UK at the time. I had an unofficial time around Anglesea circuit of 1 minute 17 in heavy rain and carrying passengers.

The last time we ran the 914, the driver and sponsor was Richard Hatfield. He later quit from the financial industry and these days runs http://www.lightningmotorcycle.com/ They were recently the fastest motorcycle up Pikes Peak hillclimb.

[hotdog]

Just to say, an ideal car for an EV project car would be an Audi A2.

Light and the rear floorplan is just crying out to have batteries fitted - I think they even had that at the back of there mind when they designed it many moons ago...............

[Ending Credits]

Hi There Ending Credits

It sounds like you know more about this than me, I am not actually building the car myself but funding the build with the advice of a very good mechanic and a local EV specialist, the only part I have built is the 10-15Kw charger from EMW as this was an electronics kit which I am capable of handling, although it is High Voltage/High Current which is also new for me, basically when I started this project around a year ago I was a complete novice and would not consider myself much more than that now other than what I have learnt about how to build an EV over the last year, and most of that is advice I could recount but is not additional skills I have learnt other than project management and HV power electronics construction.

But here goes with what I know, yes it AFAIK a 10KWh pack, the Soliton Jr is a 180kw and a perfect match for the Kostov K9 motor (9 inch 220V), standard efficiency rates for a DC series wound is around 85%.

I was originally looking at the Agni motors (Cedric Lynch Motors) as they are a British designed motor manufactured in India and give a much better 93% efficiency, however they are not really suited to cars (yet) in fact my EV specialist friend Steve works for Agni and is in the process of developing a brush less version of the Agni which should be capable of an in car application, The brushed Agni's have been used successfully to win races at the electric TT in the isle of man, but in a racy application you do end up replacing brushes regularly.

so these did not suit my application as I specified sporty and reliable so I did not want to be replacing brushes regularly.

to answer your other questions the initial curb weight if the ICE'd Honda Beat is 760Kg according to Wikipedia (same as a Nissan Micra) and I understand that this is measured with a "Standard" adult male in the drivers seat.

I have not yet weighed the car but as soon as it is moving (very soon I hope) I will be taking it down the local scrap yard to get it weighed, I am guessing it will be lighter than it was because I have stood next to the car with all the parts fitted (as it is now) excluding some welders cable and an additional 12V battery for the in car electronics (this one will be lithium Iron Polymer a heavier battery type that the Lithium polymer but much lighter than lead acid, 4 cells in a block to give the required current and it is almost exactly the same size as the original mini lead acid battery) and I was able to roll the car back and forth easily with Brent my mechanic with literally no effort at all in fact I was stunned at how light it was I could easily push the whole car in forth gear on my own with no real effort at all, easier that pushing an old mini in my opinion as I have done a few times in the past ;-) so I am fairly confident that with me in the drivers seat it should come in at less than 760Kg (nearer 500kg I hope)

Which uni are you working for or studying at, I work at Sussex University in Brighton in the UK as a technical engineer, the car is just my crazed eco project ;-)

and yes the VR4 is a fantastic car (I love it) however be prepared to remortgage your house to pay the petrol bill as if you drive like I want to then you will get 6 miles to the gallon "SIX!" now that is what I call burning the planet and is exactly why I am trying to build an electric rocket ship, so I can have my speed freak cake and eat it ;-)

choosing the motor/controller/batteries is by far the hardest part as it is very subjective depending on your requirements and budget, the Agni's are great for efficiency (93%) a lot cheaper than your 50KW YASA but in a race application would need regular servicing after every single race.

AFAIK AC motors are better at prolonged race applications (ralley's etc) and offer Regen (although this is a bit of a misnomer when you look at the energy savings there are much easier/cheaper ways to save more energy, reducing weight for example) AC motors are expensive and the controllers are extortionate, way beyond my budget.

DC series wound is by far the easiest/cheapest way to go albeit at a mere 85% efficiency, however compared to the best Internal combustion engines out there which give around 23% efficiency I am happy with this.

If you are into Drag racing, speed over a very short distance, than fit 2 DC series wound motors and 2 controllers as in the "Black Current" race winning VW Beetle.

After much discussion with my EV friend I understand that the perfect motor for an EV might well be a permanent magnet motor however AFAIK there are not many (if any) available or appropriate for the EV market and the controllers don't really exist for Automotive applications as yet (watch this space the EV market is advancing very rapidly at present).

I am of the understanding that the Batteries I have (LIPOS, not LIFEPOS) are the best you can get for racy applications (High C rating) which AFAIK means you can dump the current out of them very quickly without destroying them and although LIFEPOS are nearly as good they are considerably heavier.

I could have over volt'd the Kostov K9 motor to 270V rather than the "nominal" 220V which would have given me better top speed and acceleration however I would have needed more banks of batteries and as the car is already 3 times over torqued I though the better of this idea (might use this on the RX8 conversion I am planning rather than going for a larger motor)

Good luck with the EV project, do you have a blog/website I can follow, are you on the diyelectriccar forum (you should be if your not already)

Thanks for listening

Graham


Hi Ending Credits

Are you intending to start an EV conversion/construction company when you leave uni?

It sounds like you know your stuff ;-)

Can I pre-order my 200Kg carbon fiber chassis Tesla beating super "EV" now?

Graham

Graham

Hi Graham, I'm actually in a similar position to you where before I started on this project I knew very little about anything to do with HV systems. The EV in question is actually our car for Formula Student at Durham for which I used to be head of electronics (which doesn't actually include any of the powertrain stuff). We're a very new team although we've just merged with the Durham Solar Car team who have a lot more expertise so hopefully we'll make a bit more progress next year as we've been stagnating recently. We don't have a blog per-se although it's something we've been talking about. I'll make sure to take a look at those forums as I bet there's some great info hidden away there. You might want to take a look at some of the other teams as there is some really cool stuff such as in-hub motors (great for regen-braking).

We were thinking about Agni motors although I can't tell you what our verdict was as we seem to be in a bit of a mess regarding powertrain due to previous people being a bit disorganised (although the new powertrain team is pretty good and I work with them fairly often). I think we thought we might be able to get the YASA a lot cheaper originally; we have such a small budget atm so we're relying on getting things sponsored.

I'll pass on some of the stuff you've mentioned to the team, particularly the part about fixed-magnet motors as we may be able to manufacture some stuff in-house.

I'm at Durham sudying mathematics. Sussex is actually one of my brother's top choices (he wants to do CS); I gather he and my parents all really liked the uni.

I'll mention the EV car constuction company to my housemate as it's something I think he might be interested in. :D

Yes, the VR-4 looks to be a very expensive car even just by the service costs! I only do 2000miles a year and the Beat is cheap-as-chips to run so it shouldn't be too bad. Looking forwards to something with a bit of power for a change!


It's been a bit frustrating seeing this thread and not being able to post (posting permissions not set correctly), but that's sorted now.

Between 1996 and 1999 I was involved with a a Porsche 914 EV race car. I used to spend 5 weeks each year in California preparing and developing the car before taking it down to the Firebird circuit in Arizona for the racing. One year we were sharing track practice time with the National Auto Sports Association and were able to keep pace (or even pass) 2 series BMWs, RX7s and other similar spec cars. The real surprise to those guys was when the found out how much power we had. Given that we had to budget our energy for a 25 lap race, we were limited to just 35kw peak. A Beat by comparison is 47Kw, but that is of course a peak figure. We had the car up to 135mph (gps figure) on one of the runways at Alameada Airforce base (still with the power restricted to around 80Kw). On the street we estimated the range to be easily over 80 miles, not bad on a lead acid battery.

This was my own car project http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/sciricco-frame.htm which was probably the fastest road legal EV in the UK at the time. I had an unofficial time around Anglesea circuit of 1 minute 17 in heavy rain and carrying passengers.

The last time we ran the 914, the driver and sponsor was Richard Hatfield. He later quit from the financial industry and these days runs http://www.lightningmotorcycle.com/ They were recently the fastest motorcycle up Pikes Peak hillclimb.

35kw is less than half of what we're limited to (although we'll probably self impose a similar sort of figure). Must have been a huge task trying to keep the car reasonably light; it's hard enough now even with three times the energy density of Lithium Chemistry batteries!

[fxdlidon]

It would appear that your Beat won't be the first EV Kei car. This was takeen at the Mazda factory about 5 years ago but I've no further info about it I'm afraid.
2277

[Moriniman]

It would appear that your Beat won't be the first EV Kei car. This was takeen at the Mazda factory about 5 years ago but I've no further info about it I'm afraid.

It looks like it's using Sky Energy Lithium cells.

[eat808]

It's been a bit frustrating seeing this thread and not being able to post (posting permissions not set correctly), but that's sorted now.

Between 1996 and 1999 I was involved with a a Porsche 914 EV race car. I used to spend 5 weeks each year in California preparing and developing the car before taking it down to the Firebird circuit in Arizona for the racing. One year we were sharing track practice time with the National Auto Sports Association and were able to keep pace (or even pass) 2 series BMWs, RX7s and other similar spec cars. The real surprise to those guys was when the found out how much power we had. Given that we had to budget our energy for a 25 lap race, we were limited to just 35kw peak. A Beat by comparison is 47Kw, but that is of course a peak figure. We had the car up to 135mph (gps figure) on one of the runways at Alameada Airforce base (still with the power restricted to around 80Kw). On the street we estimated the range to be easily over 80 miles, not bad on a lead acid battery.

This was my own car project http://www.compton.vispa.com/scirocco/sciricco-frame.htm which was probably the fastest road legal EV in the UK at the time. I had an unofficial time around Anglesea circuit of 1 minute 17 in heavy rain and carrying passengers.

The last time we ran the 914, the driver and sponsor was Richard Hatfield. He later quit from the financial industry and these days runs http://www.lightningmotorcycle.com/ They were recently the fastest motorcycle up Pikes Peak hillclimb.

Hi Moriniman

Very interesting website thanks, are you still driving the scirocco?

Graham

[eat808]

Just to say, an ideal car for an EV project car would be an Audi A2.

Light and the rear floorplan is just crying out to have batteries fitted - I think they even had that at the back of there mind when they designed it many moons ago...............

Hi Hotdog

Weight wise the A2 would be a good candidate, But you have to love a car before you can convert it into an EV and the Audi A2 just aint got the love for me, Looks like every other car on the road, but I am sure if it was pimped to the max it might make me smile ;-)

Now the Audi R8 on the other hand :-) but then I dont think I could bring myself to butcher one of those (and it would be butchery on such a work of art) shame they done make an EV version to compete with the Tesla, I would buy one (after I had won the lottery of course!)

Graham

[eat808]

Hi Graham, I'm actually in a similar position to you where before I started on this project I knew very little about anything to do with HV systems. The EV in question is actually our car for Formula Student at Durham for which I used to be head of electronics (which doesn't actually include any of the powertrain stuff). We're a very new team although we've just merged with the Durham Solar Car team who have a lot more expertise so hopefully we'll make a bit more progress next year as we've been stagnating recently. We don't have a blog per-se although it's something we've been talking about. I'll make sure to take a look at those forums as I bet there's some great info hidden away there. You might want to take a look at some of the other teams as there is some really cool stuff such as in-hub motors (great for regen-braking).

We were thinking about Agni motors although I can't tell you what our verdict was as we seem to be in a bit of a mess regarding powertrain due to previous people being a bit disorganised (although the new powertrain team is pretty good and I work with them fairly often). I think we thought we might be able to get the YASA a lot cheaper originally; we have such a small budget atm so we're relying on getting things sponsored.

I'll pass on some of the stuff you've mentioned to the team, particularly the part about fixed-magnet motors as we may be able to manufacture some stuff in-house.

I'm at Durham sudying mathematics. Sussex is actually one of my brother's top choices (he wants to do CS); I gather he and my parents all really liked the uni.

I'll mention the EV car constuction company to my housemate as it's something I think he might be interested in. :D

Yes, the VR-4 looks to be a very expensive car even just by the service costs! I only do 2000miles a year and the Beat is cheap-as-chips to run so it shouldn't be too bad. Looking forwards to something with a bit of power for a change!



35kw is less than half of what we're limited to (although we'll probably self impose a similar sort of figure). Must have been a huge task trying to keep the car reasonably light; it's hard enough now even with three times the energy density of Lithium Chemistry batteries!

Hi Ending Credits

The formula student was won by an EV this year! I mentioned this to our Formula student course leader and was told that Sussex University prefers Internal combustion as there is more employment opportunities for students in that industry, (Short sighted in my opinion, but hey ho! what do I know)

you may also want to look at the newest NMC (Nickel Magnesium Cobalt) batteries, they are expensive but have 6000 recharge cycles, that’s well over 15 years of constant use! they are twice the price of LIPO and don’t give 20C discharge rates (10C which is still great) but seeing as LIPO only give 300 recharge cycles it makes sense if you want the car (or batteries) to last, I guess you would be moving the battery pack from car to car each year as new students arrive and old ones leave.

I recently discovered that our University dumps tubular steel racing car frames every year, as part of the formula student course is to build the frame, I will be speaking to the guy who is charged with disposal of these as I can see a great remarketing opportunity here (EV racecars are go!)

Agni's are not yet any good for high performance cars as they just dont last long enough and require constant servicing, You would need at least 2 to get any sort of performance.

AC motors are too expensive, the controllers are extortionate.

Regen is a bit of a misnomer to be honest even at best you will only get 15% back and you need AC motors & controllers for this, you could save a lot more than 15% by losing weight or improving aerodynamics. (preferably both)

I have also been advised that in hub motors don’t really make sense either as they are positioned in the worst place to get maximum damage (how many times do wheels get curbed for example) if each wheel costs the price of a motor they aren’t going to be cheap and with no gearing from motor to wheel the RPM range is not efficient either, plus you would need 4 motors 4 controllers etc.

It’s funny because these are all exactly the sort of questions I had to approach when building mine, My best advice is speak to someone who has already built an EV (preferably several) as they will have already made all the (expensive) mistakes you don’t want to.

I was very lucky to find an EV expert locally to me and he has proved to be a great source of information and a great filter for the huge amounts of disinformation you find around the EV scene.

The three that make me laugh most are:-

Solar panels on the roof. (what to run the clock!)
Alternators to charge you batteries (yeah Physics 101 required here)
Wind turbines on the car to harvest the wind you make as you go along. (yeah Physics 101 required here also)

Amazing how little grasp some people have of basic physics!

The forums are absolutely invaluable, there is no way I would have been able to build mine without them.

If I were running the course I would probably go for the simple approach, Large DC series wound high voltage motor 200V+, as many LIPO batteries as you could afford (or LIFEPO's if you want safety, only 3C discharge however, no good for performance) or get someone to sponsor the NMC batteries over 15 years, and go for tried and tested controllers such as the Evnetics ones or the Warp 9, that way your students can focus on aerodynamics and weight as that's what will win races. also get the open source charger from EMW it’s a great project for the students and a bloody good charger to boot an off the shelf equivalent can cost upwards of £3000, twice the price of the kit, plus you don’t have to buy the whole kit you can just get the PCB's and let the students do the rest, if you intend to race the car you will need to fast charge. (also most race tracks don’t have EV fast charging capabilities yet 32Amp @ 7KW+, this needs to change)

Plus simple is good when you are dealing with HV you don't want to be servicing a 300V battery pack on the trackside in the rain! ;-) (to be honest you dont want to ever be opening the battery pack once built other than to change a dead cell and rarely you would hope, and this would be done in a safe workshop environment by an experienced HV battery builder)

I built my own but only after a very good lesson by an expert.

Get a blog going I will subscribe (although I have no idea how you get followers I have 1, My partner, and she only signed up to test it was working!)

Good luck

Graham

[eat808]

It would appear that your Beat won't be the first EV Kei car. This was takeen at the Mazda factory about 5 years ago but I've no further info about it I'm afraid.
2277

Hi Fxdlidon

Do you happen to know what it is, i.e. what Model of Mazda?

Where did you get the photo?

Graham

[fxdlidon]

Hi Graham,

It's a Mazda (Autozam) AZ-1 (the 'A' in the ABC of Kei cars). Pic was on one of the japanese forums but I can't find out anything else about the project.

Don

[steveinjapan]

Here is another kei-car electric that apparently went into limited production. I saw one on display a few years ago. The Mitsu kei car is the only 5-passenger kei that is much different from all the others around and has a large underfloor area for batteries where the motor would normally be. As a gasoline car it was only sold in Japan, and from what I see on the streets, maybe was not all that popular because of weird appearance.... but cool IMHO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/26/2012-mitsubishi-i-first-drive-review/

[Moriniman]

Hi Moriniman

Very interesting website thanks, are you still driving the scirocco?

Graham

No, I sold the car on a few years ago. The problem wasn't range as such, my commute to work is only 10 miles and I had a parking space with power outlet. However, the traffic on the M1 back then would frequently mean my journey to work taking well over an hour. On one occasion it too four hours! In cold weather I simply couldn't heat the car for that long and the cost of running multiple vehicles was too high. I built another car (whilst I still had the Scirocco), converting one of the very last rear engined Skodas ever imported, a 135i Rapid. They only weigh about 100Kg more than a Beat! The materials may be cheap and the finish basic, but they're really well engineered. Someone came along and offered me sensible money for the 90% completed project, so that got sold too.

Since then I've done just one electric project. I built a motorcycle based on a Cagiva Freccia. Again someone came along and offered my money!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10982&p=168315&hilit=freccia#p168315

At one point it was ridden by Carl Foggerty.

Actually, I have done one other EV project. I was a team expert on Scrapheap Challenge Series 8.

[eat808]

Here is another kei-car electric that apparently went into limited production. I saw one on display a few years ago. The Mitsu kei car is the only 5-passenger kei that is much different from all the others around and has a large underfloor area for batteries where the motor would normally be. As a gasoline car it was only sold in Japan, and from what I see on the streets, maybe was not all that popular because of weird appearance.... but cool IMHO!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/26/2012-mitsubishi-i-first-drive-review/

Hi Steveinjapan

Yes this is the great IMIEV in fact this cool looking car almost convinced me to buy it as they are now on sale here in the UK and have been for a year or so.

I so nearly bought one but when I looked at the cost vs. the specs I decided I could build a better faster EV for a lot less cash. (reforming petrol head here!)

I will be watching the second hand EV market closely as I have heard rumours that EV's won’t hold any resale value at all because of the need to replace the battery pack completely after purchasing a second hand EV.

If true I could be picking up perfect upgradable EV shells for next to nothing in a few years :-)

Maybe the IMIEV was limited production but here in the UK I think they have sold plenty in fact I have just found this http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4664393 "IMIEV sold out in the UK" So very popular here in the UK in fact it was its looks that nearly sold it to me, and I would love to get my hands on one but I don’t have 24K to spare :-(

Also there seems to be a slight conspiracy going on in the insurance world it seems that the only insurers willing to insure EV's are classic car or specialist insurers, I discovered this just a couple of weeks ago when I came to insure mine, almost all of the standard insurance companies gave the same response "sorry our underwriters have pulled out of insuring EV's" on further digging we got one of them to admit that "due to the large number of claims in London over the last year we are no longer insuring EV's"

Still Adrian Flux gave me a deal I could not refuse :-)

Graham

[eat808]

Hi Graham,

It's a Mazda (Autozam) AZ-1 (the 'A' in the ABC of Kei cars). Pic was on one of the japanese forums but I can't find out anything else about the project.

Don

Wow!

I want one of those :-) Gull wings an all! rare as rocking horse S#!t here in the UK, I would love to get my hands on one, also known as the Suzuki Cara. (ebay & general web search came back blank for one to buy)

Why is it that the Japanese make the coolest looking cars in the world? and then make so few of them that you cant get one for love nor money :-(

Graham

[steveinjapan]

Graham, if it's any consolation, I have only seen one AZ-1 here in Okinawa. A lady who had no idea about how special it is had gotten it from a relative. I met her in a supermarket carpark where she was filling it up with beer cartons! Seems like I read only a few thousand were ever made.

[Moriniman]

I did actually go looking for AZ-1s.

They are out there and I found quite a few on Japanese dealers sites, but you're looking at around £6000, plus shipping, plus duty, plus VAT.

I do know of a low mileage immaculate car for sale in the UK. Don't ask for the price without the use of Oxygen.

[fxdlidon]

I got my AZ-1 about 6 years ago when the exchange rate was a lot moe favourable - £6500 on the road in the UK with 17K kms on it, there aren't any bargins like that about anymore.
There were just over 4500 made, 500 of those were badged Suzuki and called the Cara. I think there are still about 2000 left, mostly in Japan
We did have 3 at the annual KKITP meet a few years ago and there were 2 of us there this year - not bad considering there are only 5 in the uk :)

[steveinjapan]

Sighted one of these today. I suppose you Brits would say it is an updated milk float, but100-km range and enormous cargo capacity makes sense for deliveries, etc.. And it is probably a much more capable vehicle than the petrol version, with all that torque.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Mitsubishi_Motors_Minicab_MiEV_Van_%28Prototype%29 _demo-car.jpg