Last Wheel Question

[unclejemima]

Ok. I'm 99% on my rim/tire choice. Just hoping to get the "ok" from the beat crowd.

In North America, we have a REALLY limited choice when it comes to smaller tires and rims. Here is the best I've come up with.

Rims: Kosei K1TS 14x6
http://www.tirerack.com/images/wheels/kosei/swap/kosei_k1ts_s_ci3_l.jpg
4.92" Backspacing
38mm offset
9.3lbs ea. Made in Japan

I will most probably need very small wheel spacers, but I don't really have a choice.

Tires: Federal Formoza FD1
http://www.federaltire.com/en/images/datasheet/size_spec/specFD1.pdf
Federal Formoza FD1 155/55R14 front (actually 165mm wide, but 3% smaller height than stock)
Federal Formoza FD1 165/60R14 rear (funny, they are only 163mm wide, but same height as stock)

Don't know why, but the 155's will be slightly wider (2mm) than the rears (165mm vs 163mm). I don't think anyone will notice this.

These are the ONLY 155/55R14's in existance in North America...Period! So I figured I should get matching rear's.

I've got the choice of going for Federal Formoza FD1 165/55R14 in the rear as well, they are 170mm wide, but I don't think they will be tall enough. It will raise my RPM on the highway and throw off my speedo I assume.

So, on my limited choice, what do you guys think?

[scottyd]

My wheels on my car at the moment are 14" all around with 165/60R14 tyres all around. i'm using standard suspension and the tyres are fine and do not rub at all, and do not interfere with the suspension.

I have just ordered myself some BC Racing V1 coilovers and when these are fitted I will have extra clearance for wider tyres. So when I get my new wheels I am going for 165/60R13 size at the front and 175/60R14 at the rear.

Have a look at the chart that Ozsamurai made up for wheel and tyre fitments, it will give you a good idea of what will/should work:

http://members.multimania.co.uk/ozsamurai/InformationPages/TireSizes.htm

Also it is important, as you stated, to keep the rolling radius the same, all of the sizes I stated are correct within 2.5% of the original. If you want to check your standard beat size of 155/65R13 and 165/60R14 against tyres you want, use this:

http://www.alloywheels.com/Tyre_Calculator

Hope this helps.

Edit: by the way those Kosei rims are absolutely stunning!

[maiku]

Might I suggest putting the 165/60R14 in the front and going with 175/60R14 or something similar in the rear?
Reason being stability, and the fact that the rims are 6" wide, which is pushing the width for the 155 tires.

Any reason you don't want to go with some nice 195/45R14 195/55R14 Toyo T1-R?
I find the handling on the highway is much more stable with the wider tires.
I'm running 155/70R13 and 155/65R14 winter tires right now, and boy is it squirrely on the highways.

You'll have to find some good spacers to clear the front and rear with the 38mm offset, but they're the best summer tire that I found in North America.
I found them at my local ok-tire.

Where can you get the federals in canada anyway? I know the FD1's fit, but finding a source for them has proven difficult as most are backordered.

[unclejemima]

Might I suggest putting the 165/60R14 in the front and going with 175/60R14 or something similar in the rear?
Reason being stability, and the fact that the rims are 6" wide, which is pushing the width for the 155 tires.
I have a spare pair of the Federal's at home in 155/55R14, already mounted to my Kosei's (I also have one spare pair). They actually fit great! These are NOT actually a 155...not sure why they even call it a 155. They are MUCH wider.

(they are from this beast (front). I have new rims now for my bike, so I figured I would use these on the beat and save some $$$.)
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn123/cornflakejoe/PB060760.jpg

I just figured I would use the matching tire (brand/model) for the rear. Thats why I thought the 165/55R14 would be nice. Remember, its actually a 170 wide)



Any reason you don't want to go with some nice 195/45R14 195/55R14 Toyo T1-R?
I have 165/55R15 and 195/50R15's now. I find them a little on the wide side for the 64hp, but thats just me. I was unaware we could get those Toyo's though! Cool!


You'll have to find some good spacers to clear the front and rear with the 38mm offset
I figured...to bad we did not have more small rim choices. There is a place in Calgary, tuner works I think, that STOCKS Volks CE28's in 14x5.5 with the proper offset...$500ea!!! (they are forged 6.5lbs rims!)


Where can you get the federals in canada anyway? I know the FD1's fit, but finding a source for them has proven difficult as most are backordered.
Had no problem getting the 155/55R14's last year. I've not tried yet this year...hope I can get them still in the other sizes.


My wheels on my car at the moment are 14" all around with 165/60R14 tyres all around. i'm using standard suspension and the tyres are fine and do not rub at all, and do not interfere with the suspension.
Good to know!!! I like the look of identical sized (height) tires all around with same size rims.
What size rims? 14x6? Do you know the offset?


Have a look at the chart that Ozsamurai made up for wheel and tyre fitments, it will give you a good idea of what will/should work:
Done and done. Very good chart. Thanks.

[maiku]

You may be correct in thinking the 195's might be too wide.
The only reason I would fit them on my beat is because I switched to coilovers which gives a bit more space in the wheel wells.
Even so, I still needed spacers to fit.
The narrower tires might be a better option for the stock suspension / height.

Have you considered any OEM honda rims?
They usually are 4x100 and come in 14" as well, for a lot cheaper.
I have a set of Honda Civic HX wheels in 14"

http://i.imgur.com/uyKQm.jpg (i.imgur.com/uyKQm.jpg)

[scottyd]

I'm not sure of the width and offset of my 14" rims as they came with the car and i've never checked as the markings are not visible unless removed.

I will check at the weekend as I plan on painting my brake calipers if the weather is ok on Saturday, i'll let you know as soon as I do.

[unclejemima]

Cool. Thanks again for the reply guys.

scottyd, if you don't mind, have a look if you have the wheels off.

maiku. The HX wheels are nice, OEM look and light. Only problem, is they are hard to find (in good shape, not bent, ext.) in my neck of the woods. I hardly ever see them for sale anymore. If you know of a set, let me know.

I think the HX's are a 14x5.5, what would be a great fit!

I went and tried the Kosei's tonight with the 155/55r14's. The rims clear the stut no prob in the back, but in the front I will need a small spacer (1/8" or so)

The rear has surprisingly lots of space. I was able to fit the 195/50R15 WITHOUT a spacer. The rims that came with it are a 15x6 39offset.

Would I be crazy to go with a 15x7 rear rim from kosei, and then use the 14x6 in the front? I was surprised how much room there was for clearance in the back. I'm seriously thinking the 15x7's might fit. They also have a 38mm offset. The recommended tire size is also a 195/50R15 what already fits, but I would try and find smaller (185/45R15).

The backspacing on the 14x6's is 4.92", and 5.43" for the 15x7's... and extra half inch I think would work...what do you guys think?

I never thought this would be such a hard choice :)

[Beatman]

Whoa! 195's are way to big for a beat! The weight alone of a 15 inch 195 will slow your car down considerably. Then there is the aerodynamic draw backs. Hell my DC2 is running on factory 195 15's and I won't go up to preserve the performance.
You got to be realistic about the scale of the car your dealing with. There are motorbikes with bigger engines then the car you are trying to put wheels on. Imagine the motor bike having to drive on four 15 195's plus an extra 600kgs thrown in for good measure!

That said the general rule of thumb is you can go up one size in tire width without destroying the handling/performance of most cars. I'm actually real keen to see how a Beat handles on the factory width though I suspect the next size up might be the optimum for most conditions.
My Beat came fitted with 14 inch 175's all round and granted I've only really drove it the day I bought it I already feel 175's are to big on the front as the nose of the car tended to "float around" at motorway speeds.
This I put down to not enough weight per square cm of tire. It's a balance, weight vs tire width.
The Beat is very light in the nose hence why the factory gave it thinner front tires so it would have the same friction coefficient.
I'm also guessing the front wheels were 13's on purpose so they could use a tire with a fatter side walls to help absorb bumps better, probably also linked to the lower weight on the front.

Worth mentioning to that if you end up with a taller wheel on the rear then the front it will start to reduce the cars agility. Reduces oversteer but will make it harder to turn round corners. GT5 taught me that! Seems to be especially so on mid engined cars.
Conversely if you end up with a car that sits slightly lower at the back (due to suspension or wheel size) oversteer will be produced which can quite easily become dangerous.
I worked it out once, got it written down here somewhere in regards to the factory wheels. The rears are slightly taller then the fronts which came as a surprise to me as I thought the 13 65, 14 60 profile wheels would work out to be the same height.

From this I assume as a rear wheel drive mid engined car Honda designed some understeer into it on purpose to keep the public from oversteering and crashing.

Most Beats don't have an LSD either so it makes sense.

[steveinjapan]

Theory aside, I went one size up on front and rear on the original rims and it is the most secure-feeling car I've ever driven, wet or dry.

[maiku]

I concur that unsprung weight would bog down the beat.
But if you have light enough rims I think it's less of an issue.

I have 195/55/14 in the back on semi-light 12lb rims.
There are aftermarket wheels that are a 1/3 lighter than that at the same size.

I have 155 widht all around for winter right now and although the beat seems more nimble and accelerates a bit better, it's definitely more squirrely around corners and less stable at highway speeds.

I can't wait to have my 195's back for the summer. No question it handles a lot better at the expense of some acceleration.

Also have to keep in mind the limited tire sizes we have over in north america.
My tire shop was surprised they even carried low profile 155 tires.
165/175 would be impossible to find.

[unclejemima]

Wow, thanks again for all the reply's.

I see there are some differences in opinion out there, and that’s to be expected. Wheels/Rims are a matter of taste and also preference of the owner in terms of size (width, height and rim size).

I respect everyone’s opinions, and thank you for posting.

I'll let you all know what decision I made soon...

Take care,

[unclejemima]

Oh, and I found these little guys as well (ebay link).

One of few 14x5.5's I could find in North America...

These should fit the front without spacers

http://www.ebay.com/itm/14x5-5-Maxxim-Verse-Silver-Wheel-Rim-s-4x100-4-100-14-5-5-/160671077465?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2568be1459

[unclejemima]

Oh, and incase anyone wants a nice photo of the OEM tire size for future comparison, here you go :)

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn123/cornflakejoe/tires.png

[old'uns]

nothing wrong with 21 yr old suspension, OEM sizes & ditch-finder tyres....
courtesy of Steve from his Cappo @ Donnington Park
i appear @ around 4 mins in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jXT4cr0d_w&feature=player_embedded


surprising how much you can lean on 'em, get out there & find the limits.

[Beatman]

Unfortunately there are not many options for 165's. Quite a few open up at the 175 size and even 155.
A small fee at an engineering shop will modify your wheels for use without a spacer.
Spacers that don't bolt to the hub are illegal in NZ as they are dangerous.
You don't get a high enough thread to nut ratio and what happens is everytime you do up your wheels the nut thins/stretches the thread on the studs untill one day when your doing up your wheel you strip the thread right off or worse the wheel breaks off while your driving down the road.
I'm pretty sure someone was killed here once due to this which prompted the law change.

My Beat has 3mm spacers on front to make the wheels fit but I won't be driving it until I get it modified.

[unclejemima]

A small fee at an engineering shop will modify your wheels for use without a spacer.

Just curious what they do to make it fit without spacers?

[Beatman]

They weld on new material then machine it to shape.

[scottyd]

Just had the wheels off checking everything, here is what I found:

The Beat has a centrebore of 61mm (standard honda fitment), however the brake discs sit flush with the centrebore of the hub, meaning that the hub with brakes is flush, so it does not matter what centrebore your alloy wheels are.

I also found that my beat has 14x6jj et42 wheels after alot of scrubbing the muck off the inside of the spokes! The front has 5mm spacers effectively lowering the offset to 37mm, the rear has no spacers.

The tyres on my wheels are 165/60R14 all around.

My new coilover suspension should be here in a few weeks, once I fit that i'll be ordering my new wheels, i'm going for 13x5j et35 with 165/60R13 tyres, and 14x5.5j et45 with 175/60R14 tyres.

Hope this info is helpful.

[unclejemima]

Thanks all, and thanks scottyd. Very useful info.

Do you have a photo of the 165/60R14all around?

I'm running 15x6 39off right now. The 14x6's 38off I tried, still rub in the front. I'm think a 14x5.5 38off would not rub. This is the only other size I can find here.

Thanks kindly,

[unclejemima]

Anyone got photos of 14" on both ends on a Beat?

[scottyd]

Front, Rear and full pics of 14x6 165/60R14 et42 with 5mm front spacers making front et37.

Please forgive the knackered wheels hahaha.

I plan on posting pictures of the new suspension, wheels etc when they arrive and when they are fitted as a comparison.

[fxdlidon]

Here's mine how it arrived. Wheels are 14x5.5 ET 42 (I think) tyres 175/50, and only just clear the suspension on the front
http://www.clubcappo.co.uk/board/Uploads/beat2.jpg
I'm now using the 13x5.5 ET 35 trackday wheels and tyres (AO48's) from my AZ-1. 185/60R13 rear and 175/50R13 on the front (they work out fairly close to the standard diameters) Not the 'look' a lot of people would go for but they work very well :D

[Beatman]

They weld on new material then machine it to shape.

I started enquiring into modding my wheels to fit without spacers and apparently they can't add material through welding, they would make a new spacer and attach it to the wheel with grub screws.
That still leaves us with not enough thread to nut and I forgot to ask whether they can remove material from the face where the nuts seat, but I would imagine not. So long studs might be in order.

Thought I'd better clear up that mis-information!:suicide:

Everyones wheels are looking good!

[scottyd]

For those in America what about these wheels:

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/wheels/mb_wheels/product/byName.do?tmn=Seven%20X&typ=Car/Minivan

They look real smart, and come in 13x5 and 14x5.5 fitments. If only I could get them in the UK.