The definitive dash speaker thread

[Beatman]

One dash speaker thread to rule them all!

But seriously, the dash speakers have to be one of the biggest headaches for a budding Beat enthusiast. Every original full range driver in every Beat dash speaker on Earth have been cooked to the point of open circuit it would seem. However the tweeters always continue to soldier on adding to the confusion.

I believe I have finally got to the bottom of the problems and can now offer some explanations and solutions.

Lets start with the factory loom.

I have mentioned it elsewhere but it needs to be in here too.

Each pod has 3 drivers ( 2 full range drivers, and one tweeter).
The middle driver and tweeter in each pod are joined in parallel however the 2nd full range driver in each pod is wired in parallel to the full range, tweeter pair in the opposite pod! so you have 2 drivers ( 1 full range, 1 tweeter) on the left playing left channel but the third driver on the left ( 2nd full range) is playing right channel and vice versa. I assume to create a spatial surround effect?

With this wiring loom setup you can't replace the drivers individually without screwing up your impedences unless you have some sought of crossover/compensation circuit involved.
So its either use the factory loom and drivers or replace the lot with a more conventional setup.
I have chosen to fully replace/ upgrade the dash speaker setup, more on that later...

However if you are keen on experiencing the "Sky speaker" setup as Honda intended it to sound their are some things you need to know.

I recently attempted to order a set of dash speakers through Honda knowing full well they had only recently been re-released, (last year).
Unfortunately when the parts rep got back to me he reported that they were discontinued, What! Oh well, so I started on a full custom build.

However the other day I was trawling the Minikara website when I stumbled upon this which may explain whats going on. These are the new dash speakers.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1622/dashspeakers.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/dashspeakers.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

This is what the original dash speakers look like.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8792/dashspeakers012.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/dashspeakers012.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Beatman]

So when I ordered it was based on the original dash speaker part number.
There is no doubt in my mind that the new ones will carry their own part number, but the honda Japan Beat dash speaker and stereo page doesn't seem to list any part numbers?
So good news there if you want OG dash speakers, if you can find a part number they are probably still for sale. That might even be the number on the back of the speaker in the photo.

Whats really interesting is Honda has decided a more serious crossover was in order this time which makes me suspicious that the original speakers may have had a different, perhaps lower impedence, which may well have contributed to their premature demise. I still don't see how you can wire 3 speakers in parallel and end up with a resonable impendence with the only extra component being one capacitor.

Not to mention the drivers themselves are completely different! They seem alot smaller this time around. More advanced so smaller? I don't know about that. Big magnets still seem to rein supreme. Perhaps they are neodyminium magnets? Those are always smaller. They look like they have been wired alot better this time round but looking at the drivers themselves they don't exactly fill me with confidence.

In fact looking at the new ones it looks like the full range woofers themselves are protected from low frequencies this time round. Perhaps thats what killed them all the first time, being feed frequencies beyond the capabilities of the speakers?

[Beatman]

In my Minikara travels I uncovered what the Japanese have been doing to replace the blown full range drivers.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5245/fosters2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/fosters2.jpg/)

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These are the specs given for an individual driver:Manufacturers................... FOSTER
Impedance c... 8 Ohm
Playback bandwidth … 135 Hz to 20 kHz
Output sound pressure level.......... 83.5 Ｄ B
入力…………………… 5 / 11 W
Aperture diameter of baffle.......... 61 Mm + agri
重量…………………… 320 g




http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5484/fosters.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/fosters.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

From what I understand these speakers still require cutting of the dash to fit as they are unnessasarily magnetically shielded which is why the magnets are so large. Note each full range driver has a RMS power rating of only 5 watts, I don't have an RMS for the tweeter hes using but we can assume its only going to see 5 watts max as its power input will be limited by the the other two drivers.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8950/85926110.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/85926110.jpg/)

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So I guess we can safely assume 15 watts RMS per dash speaker is about all this setup will handle.

Specs for a whole pod will be something like this:
Power handling:15 watts RMS
Freq response : 135hz to 20khz

[Beatman]

Wow, talk about your massive hangovers. Back to finish what I started, still a bit shattered but!

Before I stumbled on all this I had already sourced myself the best drivers I could find available to the english speaking public.
The requirements I was trying to achieve was a better quality sound then the standard speakers but hopefully without the need to cut the dash to fit them.
Unfortunately you cant win them all and a bit of dash cutting is required but its no biggy.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/301481.pdf

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2522/dashspeakers014.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/dashspeakers014.jpg/)

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Now the way I have done this is to fit component speakers to the doors and their respective tweeters in the pods. The two full range drivers in each pod will operate as the front channel while the tweeters are run as part of the door speakers ie rear channel. This way now the least capable speakers in the system can be individually adjusted via the fader and all our impedences are legit.
I gotta say I was blown away by the sound quality of the Pioneer component speakers I fitted. Single handedly and accidently created the most high fidility sounds I have ever heard! I have not heard the system with the new dash speakers yet either!
Its worth mentioning that the component woofers fit in the door because they are 17cm oversized and came with a special mounting spacer so it could still use the the original 16cm size mounting hole.
By removing the factory metal mounting spacer and fitting the new one the speakers now fit perfectly with about a 5mm gap between the the back of the speaker and the window when its down. Also the door trim fits over the front with no contact either.

Anyway... these Visaton speakers seem to be the cream of the crop. Higher power handling then other drivers with a lower frequency response.

Each driver is rated at 8 watts RMS to give a grand total of 16 watts per pod which is pretty good considering each pod has lost its tweeter to share the load.
I shall set up a "how to" to explain in detail the fittment of Visaton drivers to your pods.

[old'uns]

nice write up, having head aches already!
may look into replacing the dash speakers whilst everything will be out as well then?

[Beatman]

Thanks. Yeah you might as well do them while its out, removing the dash is not something you want to have to do more then you need to. You risk scratching and damaging things everytime you do it, plus its a hassle.

[old'uns]

so before i click on too many products :eek:

am i somewhere right with this layout?

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h276/old-uns/Honda%20Beat/beatspkrs.jpg

4 ohm comps for doors with tweeters fitted in pods? ( i'm assuming crossover is already fitted into these?)

2 x 10cm for each pod as per your Visaton's @ 8 ohms each (wired in parallel?)

[old'uns]

ok, so after mucho looking , looks like the crossovers are a separate unit unless i've missed something. another couple of boxes to fit then

[Beatman]

Wow, very nice! I wish I knew how to make computers do stuff!

Yep you got it, only diff between my setup and your diagram is my speakers are running straight off the head unit.

The components came with external crossovers that I have attached under the dash. I am running all factory wiring loom for the components apart from splicing in the crossover at the plug just before it enters the door. That way my sub amp is still connected ( factory hardwired to door speaker wires) and the wire passing into the door is properly protected by the factory rubber tube thingy.

Worth noting make sure you get the positive and minuses round the right way or it will sound completely rubbish. I only mention this as I was caught out myself as the pioneer components I was using had the wire marked with a line as positive where as every other experience I've had in audio the wire with a line on it is normally negative.

PS. The Visaton speaker size is 6.5cm ( based on cone size) don't ask for 10's!

[Beatman]

Yep two 8 ohms in parallel.

Careful you order the right speaker there are many with similar codes. This was the best one. FRS 7 S 8 OHM
Great how it can handle 100 degrees C, perfect for dash installations!

Here's the "How to" http://www.u-ukhbc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=3338

[old'uns]

well progress made today, dry & bit sunny so stripped out dash, carpets last bits of wiring.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h276/old-uns/Honda%20Beat/IMAG0151.jpg

will pull pods apart tonight & maybe shopping as well :)
other stuff going on as well, new thread needed sometime next week

[Beatman]

This is a good time to paint that rusty steel tube under the dash! Rust breeds rust!
Here is where I mounted one of the crossovers, (its wrapped in foam).

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3/001lcm.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/001lcm.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Obsessive]

Nice that should stop any rattles. I managed to fit both of my crossovers below the stereo. Good to see you're sorting all the little details out whilst you're at it.

I'd suggest re-wiring the seat belt warning buzzer to a park light buzzer whilst the dash is out. There is a post about it somewhere here.

[maiku]

Do you know what the mounting depth is for the original drivers?
I'm looking into some replacement as well, but I'd rather not cut up my dash

[old'uns]

25mm depth.
cutting the dash isn't too great an issue though is it?
you won't see the holes as pod covers it.
when i test fit, if only a small adjustment needed i may go mental & try a heatgun, localised, to ease plastic away from magnets. will try & find a similar plastic to experiment with

i've taken Beatman's way & ordered the Visaton FRS 7 but also FRS 5 as well.
only 8 watt as against 15, similar depth but looks to have a smaller magnet diameter which may or may not fit without cutting?

[old'uns]

FRS 7 ...
depth 31 mm

http://www.visaton.com/bilder/zeichnungen/gross/frs7_tz.gif


FRS 5
depth 31 mm

http://www.visaton.com/bilder/zeichnungen/gross/frs5_tz.gif

[maiku]

My dash is covered in alcantara suede...i don't want to cut it up :)

[Beatman]

The original drivers are a mere 20mm deep. You won't find any 2.5 inch speakers that deep, trust me I've tried!
You can find 2 inch speakers that thin but then they arn't wide enough to fill the hole. The FRS 5 won't fill the hole and being that deep it will mean the dash will still need to be cut to clear the bracket.

I thought about the heat and mould method but I'm glad I didn't go with that in the end. With cutting holes you can see more clearly whats touching what. With re-moulding everytime you test fit you won't be able to see what is causing interferance. There are quite a few points that touch it can be a bit frustrating I can vouch for that!

Also its worth mentioning you only have limited space to play with even with cutting the dash as on the drivers side you have the steel body of the car quite close underneath.

If you got a fancy covered dash that you don't want to cut then the only proper soloution is the new type 2 factory dash speakers.
Unless you can find 2.5 inch wide, 20mm deep drivers but I'm guessing they are custom made for the Beat only and nothing else out there happens to be similar enough to be any use. That's how I ended up doing the full upgrade, it's all or nothing!

[maiku]

You think these would work?

http://dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_160

There are two models, one with 15mm depth, other with 26mm depth

Also found visaton version

http://www.teamaudio.fr/en/catalog/product/view/id/5876/s/visaton-k-64-wpt-8ohm/category/8/

[old'uns]

possibly but quick look says :

Mounting hole82 mm (3,23") Mounting depth15 mm ( 0,59") Outer diameter100 mm (3,94")
hole for OEM is 70 mm, not sure if they would fit even with cutting?
assume outer dia. is for grille, obviously not needed.

they would also have to be wired as per factory, dash would have to come out anyway, possibly get to pass side but driver side too much in way to get to

[Beatman]

Yeah it's pretty much as old'uns says, some of those speakers are to big and will be a nightmere to fit. Others are not good enough or are true mid range speakers which mean they are of less use and much harder to integrate into the system soundwise.
There are some things that you need to bear in mind when looking for prospective drivers concerning mounting.
The way mine was done is the bracket is hard up against the back of the speakers trapping them in place as the square frame keeps them from falling through the front. The originals were round and had a screw through each one to hold them in place otherwise they would just fall through the front. Most speakers won't have this threaded hole in the back so you will have to rely on different methods to hold them in place.
If you don't use the factory bracket you will have an impossible time mounting the drivers as the pods are not thick enough to put screws into without coming through the other side.
If your thinking of removing the speaker mesh and mounting them from the front you can't do that either unless your happy leaving the mesh off as its flush with at least one of the woofers.

Why don't you look into the factory new speakers? Probably your best option if you don't want to cut your dash.

[old'uns]

got the 5's & 7's now.

test fit on 5's...no cutting needed to fit into holes as 7's but no support either, only with the OEM bracket.
will prob need less dash cutting but fixing to bracket..?

if i need to cut dash anyway, 7's it is, as i know they're supported at both front & back

[maiku]

Why don't you look into the factory new speakers? Probably your best option if you don't want to cut your dash.

I've been looking for a new set, but they're around 30,000+ yen.
A bit rich for a pair of OEM speakers :awwww:

[old'uns]

what's the alternative then?
just run door speakers & leave dash pod in but not wired?

was going to test my OEM speakers but guess what? material on cone on first one i looked at fell apart.

4 visaton 7's cost me £40, ok i bought door comps as well but tweeters are £10-15?

[old'uns]

one shot speaker..

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h276/old-uns/Honda%20Beat/podspeaker.jpg

[Beatman]

what's the alternative then?
just run door speakers & leave dash pod in but not wired?

was going to test my OEM speakers but guess what? material on cone on first one i looked at fell apart.

4 visaton 7's cost me £40, ok i bought door comps as well but tweeters are £10-15?

How do you mean? If you bought component speakers they should come with tweeters.:confused:


I've been looking for a new set, but they're around 30,000+ yen.
A bit rich for a pair of OEM speakers

Yeah thats pretty steep, works out to be about $500 NZD.:eek:

You really have no option here. Fitting smaller speakers that don't require dash cutting come with their own host of mounting problems.

It would be great if you found a speaker that fit and could be mounted properly but I researched this for over a month and what I ended up doing was the easiest solution I could find.

[old'uns]

meaning that if no replacement door speakers, tweeters as separates

[Beatman]

Like wire the tweeters into the rest of the pod? Yeah, that would be the game plan if you don't go for the component setup.
Your looking at alot more head scratching if you want the final result to sound good though, crossovers, roll off points etc. Depends how much time and effort you want to put into it.

[LawrenceHarding]

I may be missing something here (and my 58 year old ears certainly miss a lot) but the Beat is not the world's quietest car. Is it really worth all this effort? For what its worth my Gathers unit is connected to standard size aftermarket door speakers. I also have a radio /CD player under the dash (to the left of the steering column) connected to wedge shaped speaker pods under the front edge of the seats. Sounds fine to me.

[steveinjapan]

I may be missing something here (and my 58 year old ears certainly miss a lot) but the Beat is not the world's quietest car. Is it really worth all this effort? For what its worth my Gathers unit is connected to standard size aftermarket door speakers. I also have a radio /CD player under the dash (to the left of the steering column) connected to wedge shaped speaker pods under the front edge of the seats. Sounds fine to me.

Good call, Lawrence.... The Beat cockpit is hardly a livingroom environment unless parked, and even then...

My low-end 40-watt Gathers pumps out a pretty good sound into the original door speakers, and also has the best darn cassette player I've ever owned. I did have to rescue a lot of cassettes from the bin, so it's definitely about nostalgia as much as audio fidelity. BTW, metal cassette tapes eat .mp3 for breakfast any day:p.

[old'uns]

OK so you think the OEM is fine, as far as my system goes...
Subwoofer shot, impossible to replace
door speakers i replaced some time ago, perfectly ok until recently
dash pods, very poor sound which i now know is because the paper/material holding the cones together on all 4 mids was shot.

the wiring for all this is a real nightmare, bears no resemblance to anything normal, as Beatman found out, wires spliced in loom & go all over the place.

yes the Beat cabin isn't the quietest of places but with 2 long trips coming up i'd like to be able to hear some music.
i also prefer the 'something like OEM' look, hence small HU & sorting out dash pods.

it looks drastic,you may well be able to remove pods with dash in, it's nice to see what goes where and tidy up existing wiring & check everything is OK

[Steve_M]

the wiring for all this is a real nightmare, bears no resemblance to anything normal, as Beatman found out, wires spliced in loom & go all over the place.


The reason the dash pod wiring is the way it is, is the same that Honda did on S2000. the dash pod is made to sound like its headphones (just in front of you on a beat, rather than like S2000, behind the seat) so you get left and right channels out of both sides.

[maiku]

So I managed to get an order of the oem honda ones ...
I think it's less trouble to get those than having to cut out my dash and re-wire some crossovers and components.

[Beatman]

Is it really worth all this effort? For what its worth my Gathers unit is connected to standard size aftermarket door speakers. I also have a radio /CD player under the dash (to the left of the steering column) connected to wedge shaped speaker pods under the front edge of the seats. Sounds fine to me.

Mmm, I might of perhaps had a similar opinion a few months ago. You don't know what your missing out on untill you hear some modern component splits. My set go down to 30hz! a good 35hz lower then the currently fitted 4 inch "sub"! Plus its all about making it look factory fitted for that professional look. Is a case of "yeah you can get by with two speakers" but what a shame to not realise the full potential by repairing the other 3 factory speakers.


yes the Beat cabin isn't the quietest of places but with 2 long trips coming up i'd like to be able to hear some music.
i also prefer the 'something like OEM' look, hence small HU & sorting out dash pods.



Exactly, the louder the car the louder the stereo needs to be. It is no coincidence that one of Hondas smallest cars has the highest number of speakers, with separate sub amps and wired to get louder as your speed increased.

To have a Beat with the 5 speaker system and only have working door speakers is nothing short of criminal!

Hey maiku any chance on a part number for those type II dash speakers?

Overall looking back it was a bit of a mission but it was well worth it. My Beat sound system now rivals a stadium! My Integra has 4 factory speakers 10 inch sub, separate amp, and aftermarket head and my Beat blows it away for both volume and sound quality! Beat life!

I'm currently forming a replacement plan for the factory sub using the factory amp, stay tuned! May involve 2 3 inch subs! Got some listings here and they go down 55hz which is 10 lower then the 4 inch currently fitted to my car so sounds wacky but might just be crazy enough to work!

[Beatman]

The reason the dash pod wiring is the way it is, is the same that Honda did on S2000. the dash pod is made to sound like its headphones (just in front of you on a beat, rather than like S2000, behind the seat) so you get left and right channels out of both sides.

Wow, thats quite interesting. I wonder if its due to them both being convertibles?
Must have some sought of outside noise cancelling effect? Like you say the effect of headphones.
This was why I was keen to try the factory dash speakers, oh well I will just have to rely on sheer power!

[Beatman]

I may be missing something here (and my 58 year old ears certainly miss a lot) but the Beat is not the world's quietest car. Is it really worth all this effort? For what its worth my Gathers unit is connected to standard size aftermarket door speakers. I also have a radio /CD player under the dash (to the left of the steering column) connected to wedge shaped speaker pods under the front edge of the seats. Sounds fine to me.

To be honest I was quite impressed with the standard Beat door speakers and also had no intention of replacing them untill I hatched the component/Dash speaker plan.
They are good enough that I willl be replacing our Jazz's door speakers with them!

I guess since the Beat was a convertible the speakers needed to be waterproof so they were made with a poly cone which straight away would put them above paper cones. Also knowing the standard Beat driver would have to rely on two speakers to fight the engine noise, they needed to be better then the norm.

[old'uns]

So I managed to get an order of the oem honda ones ...
I think it's less trouble to get those than having to cut out my dash and re-wire some crossovers and components.

just make sure you know which wires go where before you strip out the dash.
had a quick peek after re-fitting mine, passenger side may be able to get to fixings, drivers side will need to get torch & look now i know which screws/nuts they are,
i'm not convinced you can reach due to steel frame & steering column

[maiku]

My car came with them pre-wired so the mounting holes and wiring were already in place.
I think I should be able to remove the two screws and mount the new ones back in.

They should be here in the coming weeks from japan.
Expensive fix for audio fidelity :awwww:

[maiku]

:Anticipation:
Just waiting for it to come from japan

[steveinjapan]

There's a NEW pair of original door speakers on Japhoo now. They look good, original box etc. 3500 yen.!

[old'uns]

20 odd yr old speakers? not worth anything i'd have thought, after seeing the original speakers on mine can't see the cone material being much good?

easier to buy new equivalent & much better quality