New owner with some engine smoking

[maiku]

I got my new beat the other day and found out that it seems to be smoking.
Start-up is fine, and acceleration is fine too.
but after letting off the gas (to shift, for example) I get a puff of bluish smoke out of the exhaust.
same thing happens when stationary and just pushing the gas.
nothing happens during accel, but puff of smoke after letting off the gas

i was going to check the spark plugs, when i found the wires inside the cylinder were coated with oil.

i'm going to do another check today, but wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts?

[Wh1teLeopard]

Could be your piston rings, which took me about 4-5weeks to get running again, but it isn't impossible.

[robertobini]

I got my new beat the other day and found out that it seems to be smoking.
Start-up is fine, and acceleration is fine too.
but after letting off the gas (to shift, for example) I get a puff of bluish smoke out of the exhaust.
same thing happens when stationary and just pushing the gas.
nothing happens during accel, but puff of smoke after letting off the gas

i was going to check the spark plugs, when i found the wires inside the cylinder were coated with oil.

i'm going to do another check today, but wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts?

I think that oil smoke on the overrun is typical of worn valve guides. As the combustion pressure decreases it sucks oil from the rocker chamber above.
Worn piston rings would cause oil mist to come out of the breather pipe as the crankcase gets pressurised.
Look on it as a form of upper cylinder lubrication and just keep your eye on the oil level.

[maiku]

would it be easy to replace the valve guides?

and would this affect the emissions of the car?

and what about a different oil weight?

[Steve_M]

Probably a combination of hardened valve stem oil seals and worn/coked up piston rings (causing higher crankcase pressure)

Emissions will be higher. HC will increase. too much oil burning wont do the cat a lot of good.

Oil on the ignition leads is prob just rocker cover plug hole seals leaking a bit.

If your going to do the valve stem seals then you might as well do piston rings/hone the bores while the head is off.

Otherwise if you live with it. Make sure you keep an eye on oil level or you will be wanting new bearings or worse case another engine.

[maiku]

if i want to 'live with it'
would a thicker oil help prevent more leaks and burning?

[Steve_M]

I dont think a thicker oil would make that much difference, you will probably just cause yourself other problems.

Just put a good quality 10W-40 oil in it and check the oil level on a regular basis.

A Beat does not hold that much oil in the sump, so some consumption quickly reduces the level.

[beardo]

Might be a good idea to keep an eye on exactly how much oil it is using. Most car makers, even on new cars have an acceptable level of oil usage. I used to have an Alpina that used a litre of oil every 1000 miles. I was told that this is quite normal.

[maiku]

isn't 10W40 motorcycle oil though?

I tried to search for some standard 'motor' oil for cars in 10W40, but there doesn't seem to be any

i did find some castrol GTX in 10W40, but wasn't sure if dino oil was okay to use as the beat revs pretty high

[beardo]

10w40 semi synthetic is the most commonly used oil in cars in the UK.

[maiku]

i guess canadians have no such luxury :(

the only close one I can find that's synthetic (or semi-synthetic) is mobil1 0W40
says it's made for "european cars"...

would 10W30 be a good alternative?

[beardo]

Mobil1 is no good for a car that has an oil problem. It's like water. I'm sure 10w30 would be fine. Steve can confirm this.

[maiku]

so i should go with a semi-synthetic oil as the full synthetic would just pass through the oil leaks?

[Wh1teLeopard]

Apparently each continent has it's own grade of oil because of the difference in climate. Perhaps being a little bit further north than most of the UK maybe Canada uses thinner oil to compensate.

Just my randomness creeping through because I'm doing an assignment on transmissions and lubrication hehe.

[maiku]

okay, so I managed to spend the rest of the evening doing some maintenance

i took out the existing spark plugs, all 3 with pools of oil in them
then i took out the 'valve' cover, or whatever that cover is called and i can now see the engine

how do I go about replacing the possible seal that is causing the oil to leak into the spark plug cylinder?

[Steve_M]

You need to replace the Plug tube rocker cover seals on the cover.

Item 3 in picture.

[beardo]

Either that or the seals lower down on the cam carrier are shot.

[Steve_M]

Either that or the seals lower down on the cam carrier are shot.


Oh yes I forgot about those. :suicide:

Item 20, But much more involved to change. e.g. Camshaft caps off.

[maiku]

i think i can do the Plug tube rocker cover seals without an issue

i don't suppose there is a replacement honda part from a different motor that would work? or maybe I can source the seal from somewhere else? like a hardware store?

the rubber does feel a bit hard, and i saw some cracking, so I hope that is the right fix.


and when i'm done replacing the seal, do I need to use some silicone sealant on the outside of the valve cover?

[bigB]

5W30 is the most common oil required by auto manufacturers in Canada.

[beardo]

Apparently each continent has it's own grade of oil because of the difference in climate. Perhaps being a little bit further north than most of the UK maybe Canada uses thinner oil to compensate.

Just my randomness creeping through because I'm doing an assignment on transmissions and lubrication hehe.

You are correct Em. Usually there are 3 recommendations based on whether the climate is cold, moderate or hot. For example, for the dog wagon in a cold climate 5w30 is recommended. Hot climate 20w50 is recommended. Probably why our Canadian friends are finding it a struggle to find anything other than 5w30 or similar.

[maiku]

10W40 is reserved for motorcycle engines over here

but i managed to get a few bottles of castrol semi-synthetic 10w30, which should be enough.


i'm going to look for the seals, either at a local auto parts store (hoping the civic ones are similar size) and see if that works

and what should i torque the bolts to?

i found the thread and it says that 10mm should be torqued to 450 kgcm (32lb-ft!)
but a honda forum says it should only be 8-9lb-ft

[bigB]

"Dog Waggon" LOL love that! Snowed here today by the way.

Is that a 10mm diameter bolt? similar to 3/8" shaft size or is just the socket head 10mm? Big difference my friend.;)

[maiku]

i replaced the seals today
no more oil in the spark plug bay (from what I can tell)

but i'm still smoking
so looks like it's a different issue

it doesn't smoke as much though, only in the lower gears, and at lower speeds
on the highway with higher revs i don't see any smoke at all

so looks like the lower cam carrier seals are the culprit...


----------

i also went through emission, and results are still unchanged from the first time
superhigh HC, still low CO, still high NOx

could it be my catalytic converter is shot?
and how easy would it be to replace?
beat parts aren't easy to come by, but would an alternative/aftermarket cat work?

[beardo]

If you are going to do the cam carrier seals you might as well do the valve stem oil seals while you are at it. There are tools you can buy that allow you to do this without removing the head but it will be quite a fiddly job.

http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Valve-Spring-Compressor-OHV-Sealey-VS160

The angle of the engine may be an issue with the above.

Maybve this one for the Beat.

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/kd2078.html

[Steve_M]

i replaced the seals today
no more oil in the spark plug bay (from what I can tell)

but i'm still smoking
so looks like it's a different issue

it doesn't smoke as much though, only in the lower gears, and at lower speeds
on the highway with higher revs i don't see any smoke at all

so looks like the lower cam carrier seals are the culprit...



Oil leaks into the plug holes either via the rocker cover seals or the cam carrier seals wont cause the engine to burn oil, so what you have already done wont have change anything, well apart stop oil ruining you plug lead.

You will definately have a problem with either the valve stem seals or piston rings/bore, or more than likely both.

[maiku]

i suppose it's a fairly involved job doing the seals
and it has to be beat-specific parts to do this?

i'd just really like to get my emission under control
I can worry about tearing the engine apart after that's done

[Steve_M]

i also went through emission, and results are still unchanged from the first time
superhigh HC, still low CO, still high NOx

could it be my catalytic converter is shot?


AAAHHH!!!

High HC will be caused by burning oil. As I said before!!!

[maiku]

@#$%!!!

i guess i'll need to fix the piston rings and valve seals before doing anymore emissions testing :mad:


from what i've read, the acty engine is nearly identical to the beat
so would seals and rings from the acty work?

there are tons of local shops here that work on the acty, so it wouldn't be an issue getting parts, and possibly service

[Gavin]

iirc acty not 100% the same i remember a member off here strupping a non beat e07a and found lots of differences

[maiku]

i saw that too
pistons were different, as well as the cams

but i'm hoping the piston rings and valve seals are similar enough
we'll see what the local mechs say

[Dirk Schooner]

I too have had my Honda Beat for a couple of weeks now. It had had a full engine re-build, so had to take it steady for the first 1000 Km not revving over 5k rpm.

I was told it wold smoke a bit and burn some oil, but should settle down, once it was all 'bedded in'

I am still getting the same as everybody else, after coasting or stopped - then trottle, leaves a long trail of oil smoke behind me. So in the last couple of weeks I have put 5 litres of 10/40 semi in! I have travelled about 1400 km (all for fun).

I know the oil is low when the oil light flashes breifly when changing down into 2nd or first to come to a stop.

No loss of power (I discovered the limiter cuts off the fuel at 87mph yesterday, quite a shock). It revs sweetly all the way and is without doubt the most fun thing to drive I have ever been in. But will this smoking ever stop, or do I need to fix something? I have no problem filling with oil almost as often as I fill with petrol, apart from the expense and the anti-social clouds of smoke I leave behind.

At least I know it's not just me........

[Steve_M]

I know the oil is low when the oil light flashes breifly when changing down into 2nd or first to come to a stop.


I wouldnt let it do that too often or you will be looking at destroyed bearings very soon.

[Dirk Schooner]

I wouldnt let it do that too often or you will be looking at destroyed bearings very soon.

I know, I don't like it either. I thought by posting somebody would know what the problem is and if the engine had been re-built correctly. Would you expect this amount of oil useage after now 2000 K? I am estimating now that it burns at least one litre every 200 miles. So this is the range of the fuel tank. Does anybody else have to put 1 litre of oil in each time they fill up with fuel?

I want to get it fixed, because the engine cannot be running correctly to burn oil like this, although performance is fine. I have also now noticed the 'check engine' light sometimes glows very dimly, not full bright. If there was a problem would it be full bright, or is it going to get worse and brighter?

I don't want to destroy the engine. The reason I bought this Beat from a UKHBC member is that everything that neaded to be done had been done.

But if it's a case of "Beats burn oil, live with it" I will.

[Steve_M]

if the engine had been re-built correctly. .


By the sound of it no, A beat should not burn that much oil if its had an engine rebuilt properly, I presume they only did half the job.

I cant see it lasting long burning that much oil, Cat will die, O2 sensor will die. Will more than likely burn out valve/piston due to carbon build up.

[Bumbly1]

Sounds like it was not the proper job to me. That oil consumption is excessive. I have fallen victim to a similar half done job but in my case it was just the cambelt change. The water pump and crank seal were not renewed when it was changed (or if they were they have failed again) and I therefore assume he didn't change the idlers either, so a task for the winter nights. I was told there was no rust and have found a hole (albeit a small one) in the rear offside wing. I was also told the engine management light sometimes came on but not to worry about it "had done on his for about 2 years". Turned out ECU could not give code, replaced ECU capacators, got code, oxygen sensor US. Now replaced and all is well but imho any fault code should be fixed otherwise they are bound to cause other problems, some of which are alluded to by Steve above. The guy I bought mine from is not only a forum member but I understand is also an engineer by profession(!?). I was unable to visit and test drive mine so I bought it largely on trust. I do not regret the purchase as I suspect you don't either but it does sound like the build has not been done properly, basically any oil burned has got into the combustion chamber and the two ways in are past the valve seals and piston rings. Poor valve seals will cause smoke on the overrun (when you lift off) and worn rings will exhibit smoke under power.

Tom

[Dirk Schooner]

worn rings will exhibit smoke under power.

Tom

Thanks for the info

That is what I have then, I know the valves were well seated and checked, there is a slideshow of it being built somewhere that was linked to, although I can't fined the orignal ad for the car that was on here now, listed all the work done. It only smokes under power.

Just checked my plugs and they dont look good, the middle one not so bad but 1 and 3 look rather nasty, I don't want to run this any further in this state, if it will cause more problems down the line, and i can see why it would.

Picture here:

http://www.slodcast.com/images/plugs.JPG

So, I am looking at getting new piston rings fitted and posibly re-bore cylinder by the sounds and looks of it.

[Steve_M]

So, I am looking at getting new piston rings fitted and posibly re-bore cylinder by the sounds and looks of it.

You can normally get away with new piston ring set and honing the bores to get rid of the glaze on them. But it will mean a complete engine strip(Head off/sump off) to get the pistons out.

[Steve_M]

Piston ring set 13011-P36-003 @ £44.80 per piston (In Stock in Honda Europe)

Top end gasket set 06110-P36-020 @ £145.80 (In Stock in Honda Europe)

Or Just Headgasket 12251-P64-004 @ £56.88 (No Stock in Honda Europe)

[Bumbly1]

Judging by the plug photo, the wear looks uneven to me perhaps suggesting a broken ring in one cylinder? A rebuild will give you peace of mind anyway, I am looking at doing mine this winter too though the oil consumption is nowhere near your level but it does smoke a wee bit. I am going to remove the engine, do the water pump, cambelt, idlers, crank oil seal, rings, and replace the valve stem seals.

Anyone know where I can get the engine torque settings for a rebuild? Is there a workshop manual in English for the Acty perhaps as the torque setting should be similar.

Tom

PS Thanks for the part numbers Steve

[Bumbly1]

On the subject of oil consumption, what is the difference between the upper and lower drilled hole on the dipstick? A pint or a litre or summat else?

Tom

[Steve_M]

Other Honda models are 1 litre between MIN and MAX, but not sure about Beat seeing it only has 2.7 litres capacity.

Some one with a car should be able to comment.

[Bumbly1]

Cheers Steve, whatever it is, I will need to do valve stems, camshaft seals and rings this winter. As I also have the water pump, cambelt, tension pulleys and crank seal to do at the same time, I think it will be worthwhile to take the engine out and do it properly, I can clean it all up easier too.

Tom

[beardo]

Roughly half a litre I reckon. Topped ours up today so can give an estimate.

[Bumbly1]

Round about a pint then? Just trying to work out oil consumption using imperial measures but any which way it looks a tad excessive!

[beardo]

Round about a pint then? Just trying to work out oil consumption using imperial measures but any which way it looks a tad excessive!

Seems to be the norm. I can put up with our 1 litre per 1000km. Hopefully it won't get any worse.

[Bumbly1]

I make your consumption about 350 miles per pint which I would think is acceptable, my consumption is a good bit more than that I reckon which is why I am trying to measure it!
A wee bit of oil consumption through wear is inevitable, especially in a high revving engine with nearly 60,000 miles on the clock. Imho it does no real harm but lost power past rings, higher crankcase pressure and contaminated gasses will adversely affect performance so it is better attended to, anyway I need a winter ploy.
High oil consumption will also affect emission tests will it not - though I dont know if that will lead to MOT failure here in UK.

[Bumbly1]

Just checked today used about 500ml for 210 miles so not too bad. Accurately filled now so the next reading should be more accurate but this is mainly short runs which I think will use more? There is no visible smoking that the driver can see.

Tom