Beat not starting

[aj17ay]

I parked my BEat in the car park today, and after returning to it, IT JUST WOULDNT START UP! :mad:

I could hear the fuel pump, it was turning but just not starting!
Normally I press the accelerator to give it a boost and it works.

Last week, I completley drained my fuel out and since then it has been causing these starting problems!

Eventually after bloody 25 minutes it started! :mad:

What I did was keep pressing my clutch to help pump the fuel (did so many times) and then it eventually started! My clutch is also really soft, could this be a problem?

Am I looking at replacing the started motor then? My Battery is only 1 month old!

Please help! :confused:

[8EAT]

If the engine was turning over can't be the starter motor....did you flood the engine? why does pushing the clutch push the fuel in?

[Mylee]

The clutch has nothing to do with pumping the fuel.

[Wh1teLeopard]

Pumping the clutch shouldn't affect anything if the road wheels aren't turning.

Have you checked your distributor for cracks? Mine used to not start after a good down pour because water kept getting into the cracks.

Another thing might be your head gasket, mine had never been serviced when I bought it and it was so choked up it could hardly breathe or pass the fluids around.

I think you're going to have to bed your beat in a garage and set about tackling things one by one until you find the root of the problem. If it's anything like mine by the end you'll be amazed how much power you were loosing.

For your clutch check your reservoir under the bonnet, next to the brake reservoir. Make sure it's nice clean fluid. I believe the only way to bleed it is at the engine end, though I'm prepared to be proven otherwise.

[aj17ay]

Pumping the clutch shouldn't affect anything if the road wheels aren't turning.

Have you checked your distributor for cracks? Mine used to not start after a good down pour because water kept getting into the cracks.

Another thing might be your head gasket, mine had never been serviced when I bought it and it was so choked up it could hardly breathe or pass the fluids around.

I think you're going to have to bed your beat in a garage and set about tackling things one by one until you find the root of the problem. If it's anything like mine by the end you'll be amazed how much power you were loosing.

For your clutch check your reservoir under the bonnet, next to the brake reservoir. Make sure it's nice clean fluid. I believe the only way to bleed it is at the engine end, though I'm prepared to be proven otherwise.

Hi and really appreciate the reply.

I take it the depressing the clutch pedal is the myth, yeah?? can't seem to find any information on it.

A brand new distributor, cam shaft, cam gear, timing belt was all done only a month ago, by the previous owner. :) Although I will check the distributor.

I will also definatly have a look at the head gasket. I was also thinking at changing/inspecting my spark plugs too.

Like most people have said, my Beat is in need of service and thats exactly what i'll do! :D

I'll have a search for bleeding the clutch too.

Thanks for the help :)

[aj17ay]

Just tried starting it again and same problem! :mad:

I recorded a vid of this time. Should help diagnose the problem better.

With the car turned to position 2 on the ignition, I can hear the fuel pump, not sure, if you can hear it in the video.

Hope this helps to get to the bottom of my problem. :)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8dQp7RAvk

[marcair]

note that the problem started after the fuel was purged from the tank. May want to focus in this area. Is it possible dirt is trapped in the pick-up or elsewhere in the lines. Look at all connectors in the area of the rework for looseness.

[Steve_M]

Engine light (Orange) should go out after 5-10 seconds as you hear a click from the fuel pump relay after it has primed the fuel pressure.

(I can't hear the pump on the video)

On your video the light only goes out when you crank, so more than likely main relay.

[aj17ay]

Cool! :)

Im getting the main relay replaced on wednesday, along with the fuel filter.

Thanks for the help Steve.

The relay was replaced by the previous owner in Feb/Mar 08. This sounds like a real common problem!

[8EAT]

Did the person who sold you the car have any problems before he sold to you?

[aj17ay]

Just gave the car another attempt to start up. Eventually it started.

But this time, it cranked and started, but the Rev meter resisted to give a reading.

It sounded like it had started and with the rev meter resisting to rise I gave it some it some gas AND then it seemed to start up!

The main relay is getting replaced, but am I also looking at a bad ignitor?

Been using this site to help me diagnose the problem.

I think it's really useful for all Honda's - http://techauto.tripod.com/

[Steve_M]

You really need to determine each item.

When it wont start:

1) Does the engine light come on and go out with a click. Result: Main relay

2) Does the fuel pump prime when above happens. Result: Main relay or pump

3) Are you getting fuel pressure. Result: Pump

4) Do you have a spark. Results:Ignitor (Not common on beat) Distributor cap (Cracks or centre contact)(common on beat) HT fault (look for stray sparks)

[Steve_M]

Damaged ECU capacitor can cause allsorts of problems mainly idle and mixture problems (I dont recall seeing a beat nonstart due to ECU problems)

Carry out diagnostic engine check to see if any engine codes are stored.

[Wh1teLeopard]

Steve's a wonderful little beatcylopedia! :D

Engine code check sounds like a good idea (search for engine code)

[Steve_M]

http://www.u-ukhbc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=1448

[aj17ay]

Im REALLY appreciating the guidance and help im getting on from Members! Thank you so much.

I carried out an ECU diagnostic check, and there were no flashes, so the ECU is fine.

I've managed to get the main relay out! (This was fun! :) )

Looking at the main relay, it seems to have like an yellow/browny glaze over the circuit board, is this okay??

Some of the soldier connections are slightly covered in the same yellow/browny glaze too. Could this be causing a problem?

Pictures below ...

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/aj17ay/IMG00020-20081219-1109.jpg

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr50/aj17ay/IMG00021-20081219-1109.jpg

Hope this helps :)

[Steve_M]

I carried out an ECU diagnostic check, and there were no flashes, so the ECU is fine.

Just because it has no codes may not mean the ECU is fine. Looking at past post from the guy you brought the car from the ECU has had some sort of repair.



Looking at the main relay, it seems to have like an yellow/browny glaze over the circuit board, is this okay??


Looks ok to me.

But normally effected when its warm.
Is car starting ok at the moment??

[aj17ay]

Since everything was out, I had a quick look at the ECU. It was serviced/fixed by the ECU Doctor. There wern't any leaking components etc.

Anyway good news .... :)

After I put my relay back in, the car started instantly and also instantly 3 times after that without ANY trouble. The car also idled to 800 rpm without any trouble! :)

So just as steve recommended, I'll be getting the main relay replaced for sure and also get some of the work carried out by honda on wednesday!


Until then, I'll be happy BEATing!

--------------------------------------------------------------

Well after all that, I just tried to start it again, and it failed. Will further diagnose the problem once the NEW main relay is here! :(

[aj17ay]

--------- UPDATE ----------

I got a mini like service done on the car. (Oil filter, fuel filter, air filter, spark plugs)

I also fitted a brand new main relay and the same problem still persists!

However, the dealership still couldn't get it to start, but they said everytime they bumpstarted the car, it worked instantly!

So if bump starting it works perfectly, what could be wrong with my beat??? :(

MY CURRENT BATTERY IS:

HB028
Voltage - 12V
Capacity - 36Ah
CCA(SAE) - 280A

Did some searching on forum, and I can't find the correct specification for the battery!

Is the HB055 a better choice?
Voltage - 12V
Capacity - 40Ah
CCA(EN) - 330A

Please help! :)

[aj17ay]

I've been doing some further research into my problem.

Since I ran the car dry of fuel, could the starting problem be caused BY AN AIRLOCK IN THE FUEL SYSTEM??

I've had the fuel filter replaced, so would have any air trapped in the fuel lines been taken care of??

PLease help :)

[Steve_M]

Your not going to get an Airlock in a high presure fuel system.

More likely it has damaged the pump.

Yout need to determine is it fuel or spark the reason why it wont start. ie fuel pressure check.

[LawrenceHarding]

If the car will bump start with no problems its possible that the starter load is causing a voltage drop which is preventing something operating correctly. Does the starter spin at a normal speed or slowly? Try attaching a voltmeter to the battery terminals, NOT the wires attached to them. What does it fall to when the starter is operated? Make sure the battery connections are good, a dirty connection will cause a voltage drop. Check the battery earth to body connection and the engine earth (both ends). Battery negative to engine block should read zero volts with starter running.

[aj17ay]

Thanks again for the diagnosing help guys :)

Today, first thing I will check for is spark! (Wires/Plugs). I'll need to get to the garage to get the pressure test done!

(What is the correct fuel pressure reading??? )

Lawrence, the car bump starts perfectly. Have only done it twice though.

If the car fails to start, I will give the voltage reading a go. Have been meaning to do that.

In my previous post, I mentioned the battery that I have. Is this the correct one for the Beat? Compared to the original? The reason I ask is, because on previous threads, members have posted that even though the ignition, lights, radio etc work. The battery didnt have enough 'ooomph' in it to engage the starter!

The earth connection near the starter, looks pretty dirty to me (Like old). I'll be taking that off today, and cleaning it with the wire brush.

Will report back today, with how things went.

Ajay

[aj17ay]

Quick update on my car.

I placed a multimeter on the battery and when the starter was engaged, the meter read about 10v! Is this good or bad?

Also I started my car 3 times in succession today! I did some thorough reading on 'flooding the engine.' And I use to pump the accelerator pedal, and must have flooded the engine on many occasions.

Anyway, I keep cranking the car till it fires up! Not touching the accelerator. But as it does fire, the revs do not shoot up automatically. I have to press the accelerator to get the engine going.

I'm looking to replace the HT leads now, and still need to check for spark.

A quick question also, I've been using super unleaded in my car. Does the Beat have a knock sensor, or am I better off using 95 ron and NOT 97/98 ron petrol. Would attribute to the problem?

The car also idles at about 700rpm when its just started. But after a drive of a few miles, its about 900rpm.

I'll keep the thread updated.

:)

[Wh1teLeopard]

With regards to petrol, the beat is designed to use 100ron

[bigB]

100ron, that's like 90 octane right? 'Cus I use 86 octane no problem here in NA. No knocks.

[Steve_M]

Running on 99 (tesco) or 98 (Super unleaded e.g. optimax/ultimate) would be the closest to the 100 ron of japanese fuel.

You should not see any problems with running on 95 (normal unleaded) but may get better MPG with the higher 99/98 probably wont really notice performance increase thou

[aj17ay]

I pulled up to the petrol pumps on the way back to home from work.

And after i filled up, I had problems starting again. To avoid the horns/shouting, I pushed the Beat to one side. And after some cranking it started. Although I had to depress the accelerator to get it going, which makes me to believe its the fuel delivery thats affecting start up!

Im going to speak to the garage tomorrow and get a fuel pressure test done and check for spark as well.

I would just like to confirm the ideal fuel pressure on the Beat.

Is it 2.5 - 3.0 kg/cm (squared) ??

[LawrenceHarding]

I've tried measuring voltage on one of ours, 10v when cranking seems reasonable but as it fired almost immediately was hard to read accurately. Re reading the thread I notice the car appears to bump (push) start but not on the starter. Most of the suggestions regarding ignition, fuel etc would surely prevent starting when bumping as well. This suggests the action of powering up the starter motor is causing the problem. Could a faulty ignition switch cause a loss of power to the ecu etc when the key is turned to the start position.

[aj17ay]

Hey Lawrence

Im going to try and post another video of what happens when it eventually starts!

Hopefully the garage will be able to better diagnose the problem. There is a new battery, fuel filter, spark plugs and main relay on the Beat.

I tried to clean the ground from the starter too! But i was a bit difficult to get off.

Would the car have to be on a ramp, for me to have a better look at the starter? and see if it's spinning?

[Steve_M]

I would just like to confirm the ideal fuel pressure on the Beat.

Is it 2.5 - 3.0 kg/cm (squared) ??

Yes with vacuum pipe off of pressure regulator.

Pressure check point on top of fuel tank fuel pump unit.

[aj17ay]

Im hoping this will help the problem better.

In this video, the car eventually starts up. This is what i experience most of the time.

The car starts absolutely fine on a bump start though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBlpPsMP4gQ

I'll be getting the car fuel pressure tested this week and for spark too!

hope this helps ...

thanks

ajay

[Adam]

Well the light is not turning off, I would try plugs leads and timing (only if you moved it) a once over on the ignition system. when plugs are out you can see if she is sparking too just dont hold the spark plug when turning the engine over. I'd say its something silly

[Steve_M]

I still think you have a problem regarding the Main relay/fuel pump control.

Poss ECU related that its not switching the main relay.

Engine light should go out after the ignition is turned on, yours only goes out when you crank the engine.

The fact that the ECU has had some sort of repair I still suspect that still may be an issue.

[aj17ay]

I still think you have a problem regarding the Main relay/fuel pump control.

Poss ECU related that its not switching the main relay.

Engine light should go out after the ignition is turned on, yours only goes out when you crank the engine.

The fact that the ECU has had some sort of repair I still suspect that still may be an issue.

Hi Steve

I've put a BRAND NEW relay into the Beat, and it has still not cured the problem! So next, as you have suggested is the fuel pressure test!

Thought I would mention this, before I ran the car dry of fuel and these problems started to occur, The ECU light has always acted this way!
And it started instantly before the fuel running out problem

After Jan 1st, I am taking it to the garage! Definatly check for spark, fuel pressure and ignition timing!

So it doesn't sound like a starter problem????

[Adam]

No its not a starter problem, but I would think its something silly thou. I would doubt that its a pressure problem too.

[Leachyboy]

having had a beat for 5 years now i have suffered hot starting issues off and on as i dont use the car that much - note it always started first time even in the middle of winter

Anyway when the car got hot it misfired badly and if it stalled would not start again for 30 minutes - a nightmare at junctions or filling with fuel awwww:

Recently I did find a fix that was due either to a half a pint of antifreeze added to the rear resoweir or that i kept the revs at 4000/5000 for ten minutes until the red fan cut in several times - i guess a sticky water thermostat or gummed up idle control valve ?

either way its worth a try for you as neither cost anything - first time ever revving a car fixed a fault for me - also worth a try was to remove the fuel cap to release air .... sometimes fixed it for me
:D: