Beat Tuning

[bibbles]

Hey guys, so basically, there's no where to find information as the the result of tuning the beat, or what you can really do. It's mentioned that you can chip it, but never the result of that is other than delimiting...

Anyway, a bit frustrated, I'm starting this thread. What modifications can one make, performance wise, and what are the results? I'm trying to decide between an AZ-1, a Beat, and a Cappuccino, and as things stand, I leaning away from the beat because, tho I love it's styling, and the longer wheel base, there's no information about it anywhere.


The mods I've seen mentioned:

Chipping it
ECU replacement
Headers
Stacks/Horns
Turbo? (There's a turbo version of the engine I hear...)

And Back Yard Special's crazy B18 Beat, but I'm not sure what that would involve, or if I would be up to it.

[Wh1teLeopard]

They are very highly tuned cars as standard to be honest. Mine has a chipped ecu, the little throttle body funnels, oversized pistons and rings and an exhaust system, but there isn't really much else I can do to it.

It's an old fragile engine now, and the more I push it the more often it breaks. Like my friend says the candle that burns twice as bright last half as long.

Depends how much money you were looking to spend?

I'd recommend a test drive of each car, if that's possible, see what you think afterwards, you may not want to do much to the engine on a beat once you hear the noise it makes hee hee

[bibbles]

Not really possible sadly... Really they break down like this:

Cappu: Solid after market, lots of torque, especially in the later k6a models, can be taken to 150bhp with relative ease. Looks ok stock, nice body kits.

Beat: Cheapest. Looks great, weak after market, but it exists, fantastic engine (reminds me of my favorite engine, the 4AGE 20v), not a lot of torque so it's a bit slow to accelerate.

AZ-1: Mu'fugg'n gullwing doors. Same engine as early Cappus, so it can use most of the engine tuning parts, but other than that, there's basically nothing. Love it or leave it looks, and I'm not sure where I stand.

I wonder how hard a B16 swap would be... You'd have to adjust the suspension, and fab mounts... if it even fits. But oh what a feeling it'd give you.

PS. Always thought your beat was off the f*****g chain.

[Yojimbo!]

As I see it, the problem with tuning a Beat is going to be that both parts and engines if you blow one are effectively unavailable short of buying new from Honda… big money. Although the engines are easily available on Japhoo, shipping is problematic and so expensive it me be nearly as cheap to by a Beat of FleaBay here and break it if the situation arose.

[LawrenceHarding]

Some years back there was talk on the site about fitting a bike engine. Japanese preformance car issue 47 ( copy on ebay at time of posting under honda beat) has article about beat with nitrous. If you're thinking about engine swappery how about the daihatsu charade gtti (993cc 12valve turbo which can apparently take up to 28psi boost). Only a suggestion as I'm content with standard beat.

[bibbles]

If you're thinking about engine swappery how about the daihatsu charade gtti (993cc 12valve turbo which can apparently take up to 28psi boost). Only a suggestion as I'm content with standard beat.

Well, That sounds far better suited to the Beat, but there's a swap kit (or soon will be one) for the B16 which is why I was looking at that. I'm not really sure how much would be involved in the swap, if the B16 uses a cable tranny that makes things much easier...

Wiring will likely be a headache tho. Waiting to hear back from the guy about it...

[Yojimbo!]

I've got a Japanese article on a Beat with a B16, it's a squeeze but it does fit… and goes like hell! Even a basic B16 chucks out 160BHP. Cable tx is no problem with a B16. Personally, I think the D16 with 90-125BHP would be a better bet and are readily available in Civics

The same magazine had a Beat fitted with an automatic TX from a Honda Life, basically the same engine as the Beat.

I'd be interested iof you had a link to that B16 conversion. The problem the Beat will always face in the UK is the zero availablity of replacement E07A engines.

[bibbles]

I've got a Japanese article on a Beat with a B16, it's a squeeze but it does fit… and goes like hell! Even a basic B16 chucks out 160BHP. Cable tx is no problem with a B16. Personally, I think the D16 with 90-125BHP would be a better bet and are readily available in Civics

The same magazine had a Beat fitted with an automatic TX from a Honda Life, basically the same engine as the Beat.

I'd be interested iof you had a link to that B16 conversion. The problem the Beat will always face in the UK is the zero availablity of replacement E07A engines.

Apparently the F6A and K6A are used in snowmobiles and there are lots of people who've dealt with them in California which is why I was leaning toward a Cappu/Cara/AZ-1...

As for the swap: I was looking around for info on importing a Kei to the USA and I found a thread on some other forums or something and wound up on his Facebook. I asked where he got it and everything, and he reffered me to some guy in Canada (possibly on this forum) who's an Kei enthusiast. I emailed him about Beats and stuff, he mentioned the kit he was working on... But he hasn't really said much more about it.

I've pretty much decided that if the kit exists, and is reasonably priced, I'm getting a beat, if not, I probably wont. The engine expertise around here concerning the other two/three is fairly priceless.

Why the D16 by the by? They are both 1.6l engines... perhaps you think the lesser power might suit the Beat better... I guess finding new suspension to take the extra weight might also be relevant. To tell the truth, I would totally swap in a 4age 20v as it is, IMO, the greatest motor ever, but it doesn't use a cable tranny which is just one more headache... (dude, the wiring, snap)

[Yojimbo!]

Why not the B16? I don't think 160+BHP in a Beat is going to be a daily driver…

One engine I am looking into is the SMART engines, they are very similar in layout to the Beats EO7A, (Slant 3 layout, RWD rear engine) and readily available. Now that Mitsubishi are part of the Mercedes empire they are supplying their Kei engines for the newer SMARTS…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_3B2_engine

[DaX]

Ah, You're the one I was chatting with on Facebook, Bibbles. Where in the USA are you located?

[JamesJT]

The mitsubishi engine is also the one going into to new AC Ace, 61, 75 or turbo'd 84bhp. Can't wait for this car to come out, I'm trying to buy the 1st one!

The old 698cc smart engine was good for at least 110bhp and sounded great but it only revs to 6500. Part of the fun from a Beat is the 9000 rev limit.

If money was no object you could get Z cars to put a bike engine in a beat. 180bhp and a sequential 'box sounds like fun but you'd be looking at £10k, Then you'd need better brakes, stiffer suspension, body stiffening, etc.

I've always modified my cars in the past but improving one thing shows up weaknesses somewhere else and the bills just keep comming. Better just to buy a faster car in the first place.

James

[Yojimbo!]

http://www.smartuki.com/prices.html

:D

[Yojimbo!]

Nice!!!!

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_official_picture.php?sid=336&page=2

[Mylee]

http://www.smartuki.com/prices.html

:D



Interesting read. There's some nutters out there! :D

[JamesJT]

That £9000 kit adds independent suspension and disc brakes to the rear of a smart. Both these things you get free with a honda Beat.

J

[Wh1teLeopard]

http://www.smartuki.com/prices.html

:D

Damn you, now you have put ideas in my head for my smart :p

[Yojimbo!]

That £9000 kit adds independent suspension and disc brakes to the rear of a smart. Both these things you get free with a honda Beat.

J

Yes, but does it do 0-60 sub 5 seconds :)

[JamesJT]

My ford focus does 0-60mph quicker than a Beat, come to think of it, so does almost any other car on the road. If we were bothered about 0-60 we wouldn't buy Beats.

J

[bibbles]

http://www.smartuki.com/prices.html

:D

You know, You could PROBABLY fit that into a Beat... It's grossly over priced tho... :(

I wonder what a good shop would charge to put in another engine, I was told $2,000US for another rather involved project (labor only obv) but hey, if a B16 costs... between 1k and 2.5k, that's not too much for a VERY solid drive train... You'd just have to worry about finding new suspension and breaks.

I do agree, 150-190hp might be a bit much, really, an F6A or a K6A would be great if transverse transmission were easy to find. The exists, as they are in the AZ-1, however, few were make I'd expect... You can tune those to 150bhp without too much trouble tho, and there's a lot of know how out there as they are used in both the Cappuccino and snowmobiles...

I'm still unsure about the Cappuccino v Beat thing... :( I think the more time goes by, the more I think the Cappu might just be easier to deal with.

[JamesJT]

Simple choice: Do you want a mini NSX(Acura) or a mini MX-5(Eunos)? Does that make it easier for you?

J

[old'uns]

I'm still unsure about the Cappuccino v Beat thing... :( I think the more time goes by, the more I think the Cappu might just be easier to deal with.

cappu's not the most solid of bodies, Suzuki UK had a lot of rust/warranty probs.
as i understand it, Jap cars aren't rust-proofed as standard, Beat included, but i've yet to see a rotten Beat.
not much point in having 150+bhp for it to fall apart around you
way i see it, no need to tune Beat or Cappu, why not just buy a bigger convertible?

[Steve_M]

way i see it, no need to tune Beat or Cappu, why not just buy a bigger convertible?


Just what I did. Bought a Lotus Elise. Similiar weight as Beat but 120 BHP with an egine thats not so stressed.

a Beat may look like a sports car, but its a kei car for city driving. Dont think its worth the investment need to carry out engine transplant

[bibbles]

Just what I did. Bought a Lotus Elise. Similiar weight as Beat but 120 BHP with an egine thats not so stressed.

a Beat may look like a sports car, but its a kei car for city driving. Dont think its worth the investment need to carry out engine transplant

What did the Elise cost, what did the Beat cost? :P Also, the Beat is more than 200kg lighter. Kei cars have a certain je ne sais quoi, yes you could get a faster car, you can pretty much always get a faster car, but budget isn't always the reason not to...

And whether someone is going to ever do some crazy swap in the beat or not is hardly a reason not to dream.

[LawrenceHarding]

How often do you want to put the roof up or down. If I remember rightly a Cappo roof comprises 3 panels between the front & rear windows which have to be removed and stowed (presumably in the boot), and a rear hoop incorporating the window which folds back behind the seats. In comparison to lower a Beat hood lower side windows a little,unclip front edge, unzip rear window and shove header rail backwards. Reverse process to raise. I can do either from the driver's seat in less than a minute.

[LawrenceHarding]

My ford focus does 0-60mph quicker than a Beat, come to think of it, so does almost any other car on the road. If we were bothered about 0-60 we wouldn't buy Beats.

J

Few roads in Guernsey are wider than an average English B road, most are winding and we have an island wide speed limit of 35 mph (25 in built up areas). Under these conditions a Beat will run rings round most more powerful cars by virtue of being at least a foot narrower. It's also more fun to drive at legal speeds. We even have an area of Beat sized parking spaces in the town centre.

[bibbles]

Few roads in Guernsey are wider than an average English B road, most are winding and we have an island wide speed limit of 35 mph (25 in built up areas). Under these conditions a Beat will run rings round most more powerful cars by virtue of being at least a foot narrower. It's also more fun to drive at legal speeds. We even have an area of Beat sized parking spaces in the town centre.

We, have Kei sized parking spaces some places, obviously not for kei cars, probably for motorcycles, but they are like, one or two randomly in some parking strictures, usually motorcycle parking is like 10 spaces next to each other... usually regular cars park in those small and like, overlap hella bad.

How strong is the beats tranny? Couldn't you just take all the motorcycle specific bits off an R1 motor or something and just get the bell housing fabbed or just get an adaptor plate?

There's someone hear doing an R1 swap I read somewhere, but due to he suck that's vBulletin (phpBB more imo) I can't find a thread about it, and there MUST be one... How is whomever is doing that going about it?

I guess you would need to change the final drive, but that aside... motorcycle engines are just regular engines right?

[JamesJT]

Did somebody suggest a beat was lighter than an Elise?

1997 Elise 725Kg (It's made of plastic!)
1991 Beat 760Kg

I stand to be corrected though.

J

[bibbles]

Did somebody suggest a beat was lighter than an Elise?

1997 Elise 725Kg (It's made of plastic!)
1991 Beat 760Kg

I stand to be corrected though.

J

All of my searches turn up as such:

Lotus Elise has a curb weight of 870kg-930kg (depending on the site)
Honda Beat has a curb weight of 760Kg or less (depending on the sight)

Note that wikipedia (I'm guessing is your source) is full of half truths... they also say there was an Elise weighing in at sub 500kg

Everything I've ever seen about the Lotus Elise says it weighs just under 2000lbs, from the internet to Top Gear and whatever else in between... Who knows maybe that's just the new one.

Anywho, that R1 thread? Any details, etc?

[TADO]

hi bibbles
i belive the lady building the R1 beat is jennifer - she's kept it pretty quiet tho! ;)
heres some info on it but im not sure if theres a whole thread as such about it:
http://u-ukhbc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=2046
sounds like it'll be pretty impressive when she's done!

[bibbles]

hi bibbles
i belive the lady building the R1 beat is jennifer - she's kept it pretty quiet tho! ;)
heres some info on it but im not sure if theres a whole thread as such about it:
http://u-ukhbc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=2046
sounds like it'll be pretty impressive when she's done!

Awesome! >.> Now to see if that thread with detailed mentioned ever was started...

[Jennifer]

I got mentioned happy days :) Thanks Tado!

Quite a few things you need to consider when doing a motorbike engine conversion.

1) Cost
2) Patience
3) Worth it to you?

If it is going to be a weekend / track / sprint car like I am going to be using when I save enough more for the more exspensive parts.

Also the gearbox will cost a fair amount, you can use the OE motorbike one no problems but you will have to incorparate a reverse gear into it. The actual wiring is not a problem, but the most work comes in building up the rear subframe / cage for the engine to sit in.

Z-Cars has plenty of information regards this and are very helpful.

I have not done a project thread about this as such because it is so hit and miss when work is being done to the car (financial contraints, house = more priority at the moment)

[bibbles]

Also the gearbox will cost a fair amount, you can use the OE motorbike one no problems but you will have to incorparate a reverse gear into it. The actual wiring is not a problem, but the most work comes in building up the rear subframe / cage for the engine to sit in.

If you use the bike tranny, you need a chain drive right? That's how it is in the ZCars minis anyway... I was thinking, couldn't you fab some engine mounts and, with an adaptor, plug it right into the Beat tranny?

What gearbox are you talking about being expensive?

[Yojimbo!]

a Beat may look like a sports car, but its a kei car for city driving. Dont think its worth the investment need to carry out engine transplant

Agreed, my only concern is the almost zero availablity of replacement EO7A engines here in the UK.

All I need to find now is someone who can import them from Japan were they and the newer EO7's are reasonably plentiful at a reasonable cost.

[bibbles]

a Beat may look like a sports car, but its a kei car for city driving. Dont think its worth the investment need to carry out engine transplant

I missed this earlier I guess. That's not a great way to look at things, if you wanted a bike engined car, wouldn't a small light car be a much better candidate? Why buy an Elise to do a Hayabusa swap when you can do the same thing to an old Mini?

Cars aren't all just cars, they are not all relative to one another in what they can do in exactly the same way as the other things they can do. Different cars have different tuning potential which is brought out in different ways.

Beyond that, what's cooler, a Mini with a Type-R in the back seat, or the Ferrari with the same performance numbers up to 150mph or so?

http://www.zcars.org.uk/mini/civic.htm I can't find the performance numbers to quote right now, but the Mini does 0-60 in 3.25 seconds, so it wouldn't be some POS Ferrari (did I just say that?). The Mini would certainly cost less as well.

Similarly, putting a B16 into a Beat would yield outrageous performance vs cost. Sure you could achieve something similar with a CRX and a B16, but cars are judged on much more than their performance by both their owners and spectators. Yes, you'd have to put in a bit more time working out getting things balanced, finding things which will work, but at the end of the day, your friend with the CRX will be telling his friends all about your build, not his own.

Ugh, I could go on forever, but I'll leave it hear, simply pointing out that I was never interested in making a super car out of a Beat, nor are the people putting F20Cs into ae86s, but they're still doing it.

Personally I get more excited about a stock Beat than an Elise, but that might be because I see at least 3 or 4 Elises every week, and no Beats.

[old'uns]

so what's the decision then?
Beat, Cappu or AZ1 ?
or have you already bought the Beat with engine prob that was on e-bay;)

[Paul w]

I spoke to Z cars about 2 years ago. They took a look at the beats schematics and quoted 10-12k to put a hyabusa and subframe in....

Neither wallet or heart could take it.......

PW

[bibbles]

so what's the decision then?
Beat, Cappu or AZ1 ?
or have you already bought the Beat with engine prob that was on e-bay;)Lol, I hate that one's front :( and no, I don't have anything yet. Probably going to get it in June, and wait like... 3 or 4 months for it to get here.


I spoke to Z cars about 2 years ago. They took a look at the beats schematics and quoted 10-12k to put a hyabusa and subframe in....Read that thread, it was a very involved job, paddle shifts and stuff... >.>

How involved do you think a B16 swap would be? Both use cable trannys, so that's easy, you'd need to fab some engine mounts. Wiring might be interesting, and you might need to get a bit creative with the plumbing. A bigger radiator, stiffer suspension, bigger breaks, and probably either fab some axles to get the power to the wheels, or just swap over the wheels and stuff from a civic. Probably wide fenders to give you room for a wider rear end and more rear stability, as there's probably now a considerable weight bias. You probably want a hard top and whatever you can find to add strength and rigidity to the car... but hey, you get to keep you're gauges...

All together, it does seem like a lot, but it seems like it's probably less involved than a bike swap. And hey, what might it cost all together? Let's see, if you're going through all this, a nice B16B would be nice, but it'll also fetch around $4,000US. A B16A will put out 160bhp (25 less) and will cost only around $1000US, so we'll go with the B16A.

I've heard that the wiring plugs should be the same(?) so we'll skip over that for now... Plumbing is pretty much free if you can do it, as is the fabrication, but we'll put $2000US toward all that just to pad the numbers. I would swap for Civic wheels and breaks, and grab a Civic master cylinder while I was at it. Junk yard, junk yard, we'll call it $500US, again padding for the cost of break line and what not. The Civic might not have the most amazing breaks, but this car will weigh 300-400lbs less, so they should be great. Wheels will cost what you'll pay, but good wheels are cheaper than you think, it's the big useless ones which are expensive. We'll call it $1500US.

The hard top is $2500US but if you were going to buy a Beat for this project, you might find one with a top, either way, it's not required. The fenders however you'll probably need, Backyard Special sells some really nice ones for $1000US, I have no idea what shipping might be, but hey, again, if you get a car just for this, you might get everything all together from Japan.

New suspension, the only coil overs I can find are $2500US but I'm sure you can find some for less, maybe meant for a Miata or Civic/CRX (Cappuccino?). No idea what a bigger radiator might cost, or what would even fit...

Throw another $1000US at it for good measure and you're looking at between $8000US and $10,000US which really isn't that awful, especially considering you can do the breaks and maybe a couple other things without doing everything and spread the cost out, maybe buy a cheap engine when you see one, etc...

In the end it would weigh around 1750lbs and have 160+bhp... now the engine would probably never break, and parts would be plentiful. You'd likely never tire of it, and more power is just a click away (lol, google), and most importantly, every time you sat in it, you'd be 12 again.

If a Beat costs 2000 pounds, and the swap would cost 6000 pounds... do you really think for 8000 pounds you can get more smiles?

If you had someone else do the work it would probably add another $3000US...

[DaX]

Actually, the B16 does not use a cable shift transmission - only H/F series and the new K-series for transverse mounted engines.

Fitting Civic suspension/brakes will not be cheap - the Beat uses a McPherson strut and Civics use double-wishbone. I think the BYS Super-Beat uses double-wishbone, but fab work was probably nightmarish!

Your numbers still seem overly conservative for a nicely done job. I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but have you ever done any highly involved projects like so? My experience is that even with the best of planning, expect to spend anywhere from 25-75% more money than you originally planned! Again, this is for a clean execution - I've seen many wild conversion projects that cost very little, but they turn out to be nothing more than a cobbled up mess.

I am 100% behind you though and would really love to see someone stateside do this!


Lol, I hate that one's front :( and no, I don't have anything yet. Probably going to get it in June, and wait like... 3 or 4 months for it to get here.

Read that thread, it was a very involved job, paddle shifts and stuff... >.>

How involved do you think a B16 swap would be? Both use cable trannys, so that's easy, you'd need to fab some engine mounts. Wiring might be interesting, and you might need to get a bit creative with the plumbing. A bigger radiator, stiffer suspension, bigger breaks, and probably either fab some axles to get the power to the wheels, or just swap over the wheels and stuff from a civic. Probably wide fenders to give you room for a wider rear end and more rear stability, as there's probably now a considerable weight bias. You probably want a hard top and whatever you can find to add strength and rigidity to the car... but hey, you get to keep you're gauges...

All together, it does seem like a lot, but it seems like it's probably less involved than a bike swap. And hey, what might it cost all together? Let's see, if you're going through all this, a nice B16B would be nice, but it'll also fetch around $4,000US. A B16A will put out 160bhp (25 less) and will cost only around $1000US, so we'll go with the B16A.

I've heard that the wiring plugs should be the same(?) so we'll skip over that for now... Plumbing is pretty much free if you can do it, as is the fabrication, but we'll put $2000US toward all that just to pad the numbers. I would swap for Civic wheels and breaks, and grab a Civic master cylinder while I was at it. Junk yard, junk yard, we'll call it $500US, again padding for the cost of break line and what not. The Civic might not have the most amazing breaks, but this car will weigh 300-400lbs less, so they should be great. Wheels will cost what you'll pay, but good wheels are cheaper than you think, it's the big useless ones which are expensive. We'll call it $1500US.

The hard top is $2500US but if you were going to buy a Beat for this project, you might find one with a top, either way, it's not required. The fenders however you'll probably need, Backyard Special sells some really nice ones for $1000US, I have no idea what shipping might be, but hey, again, if you get a car just for this, you might get everything all together from Japan.

New suspension, the only coil overs I can find are $2500US but I'm sure you can find some for less, maybe meant for a Miata or Civic/CRX (Cappuccino?). No idea what a bigger radiator might cost, or what would even fit...

Throw another $1000US at it for good measure and you're looking at between $8000US and $10,000US which really isn't that awful, especially considering you can do the breaks and maybe a couple other things without doing everything and spread the cost out, maybe buy a cheap engine when you see one, etc...

In the end it would weigh around 1750lbs and have 160+bhp... now the engine would probably never break, and parts would be plentiful. You'd likely never tire of it, and more power is just a click away (lol, google), and most importantly, every time you sat in it, you'd be 12 again.

If a Beat costs 2000 pounds, and the swap would cost 6000 pounds... do you really think for 8000 pounds you can get more smiles?

If you had someone else do the work it would probably add another $3000US...

[bibbles]

Actually, the B16 does not use a cable shift transmission - only H/F series and the new K-series for transverse mounted engines.

Fitting Civic suspension/brakes will not be cheap - the Beat uses a McPherson strut and Civics use double-wishbone. I think the BYS Super-Beat uses double-wishbone, but fab work was probably nightmarish!

Your numbers still seem overly conservative for a nicely done job. I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but have you ever done any highly involved projects like so? My experience is that even with the best of planning, expect to spend anywhere from 25-75% more money than you originally planned! Again, this is for a clean execution - I've seen many wild conversion projects that cost very little, but they turn out to be nothing more than a cobbled up mess.

I am 100% behind you though and would really love to see someone stateside do this!I was talking if you did all the work yourself. I haven't done anything like this on this scale before, but I'm good at petty much anything I put my mind to, and I have a few friends who actually know what they are doing.

Not to mention that I've got access to the Tool Library where you can check out ANY tool for free...